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Help[Opinions] Juniors and "Numbers"
I have a son who was named after his father. My husband was William James III, and my son is William James IV.
Giving a son the same name as his father wasn't something I had planned on doing, and wasn't something I would have thought of myself, but my husband had his heart set on it. That being the case, I didn't have a problem with it. I think that one thing that made me more amenable to it was the fact that my son would be a IV, and not merely a Jr. What I mean is, I didn't feel it was a tradition I wanted to start, but it was one worth carrying on.
I read a study once that concluded that boys named after their fathers do tend to have more problems in their relationship with their parents than boys who are not. But the study emphasized that this was not due to the fact that the boys were named after their fathers, but that parents who DO name boys that way are more likely to have expectations that the boy will be like his father, and this is what leads to the problems. I knew that we were not going to raise our son with the expectation that he had to be just like his father, so this study never bothered me.
So how do you feel about naming a son after his father? Is it something you would proactively do? Or would you only go along with it if your SO wanted it? Would you go along with it happily, or very reluctantly? Or would you fight him tooth and nail on it?
Giving a son the same name as his father wasn't something I had planned on doing, and wasn't something I would have thought of myself, but my husband had his heart set on it. That being the case, I didn't have a problem with it. I think that one thing that made me more amenable to it was the fact that my son would be a IV, and not merely a Jr. What I mean is, I didn't feel it was a tradition I wanted to start, but it was one worth carrying on.
I read a study once that concluded that boys named after their fathers do tend to have more problems in their relationship with their parents than boys who are not. But the study emphasized that this was not due to the fact that the boys were named after their fathers, but that parents who DO name boys that way are more likely to have expectations that the boy will be like his father, and this is what leads to the problems. I knew that we were not going to raise our son with the expectation that he had to be just like his father, so this study never bothered me.
So how do you feel about naming a son after his father? Is it something you would proactively do? Or would you only go along with it if your SO wanted it? Would you go along with it happily, or very reluctantly? Or would you fight him tooth and nail on it?
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Our older son has as his two middle names, his Father's, and (late) parental Grandfather's. His first name is one we liked.
Should you think that I slighted my own Father, not using his name, I thought I'd leave that name for my much younger only brother to use, if he liked , when he'd have a son. and that's what he did.
Should you think that I slighted my own Father, not using his name, I thought I'd leave that name for my much younger only brother to use, if he liked , when he'd have a son. and that's what he did.
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I'd fight against it, personally. I really, really dislike boys having the same fn as their father, or being a Jr., III, etc. I might consider it if my husband had his heart set on it, and esp. if he was a III, IV or more and wanted to continue the tradition. But I'd insist on the son having a different nn, at least, than his dad. None of this Big Jim and Little Jim for me. I could deal with Jim and Jamie or son going by his mn, etc. However, I do like it when boys have their dad's fn as their mn (first son, at least). That's fine, imo.
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No, I wouldn't be happy about it..
I like names too much to sacrifice my son's name to a family tradition I have nothing to do with.
I like names too much to sacrifice my son's name to a family tradition I have nothing to do with.
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You won't like this but I absolutely HATE the practice of giving sons numbers like William John IV. To me, it looks ridiculous and pretentious. Maybe it's because I've grown up in Britain where nobody does this and the only people who have numbers after their name are members of the royal family (e.g. George VI)
I have a friend whose father is the 7th Thomas James (known as Thos) but he would never write his name as Thomas James VII. I think it looks ridiculous.
As for naming a son after his father, it's not something I'd do, mainly because I think it's a bit boring and could be confusing. If I married a man whose family did that I would only do it if the family were desperate to continue this tradition and only if I genuinely liked the name (i.e. he was called Benjamin or Alexander) or if we could call the son by his middle name. I can't really imagine why anyone would get that worked up about continuing a name and if they were, it would probably make me more stubborn and fight against it!
I would, however consider using the father's name as a middle name. This is fairly popular over here and my brother has my dad's name as his middle name. Seems to be only a tradition for boys. I hardly know anyone who gives the mum's name as a mn for a girl. Maybe because women aren't so bothered or maybe because their names usually date more quickly. My friend gave her son her husband's fn as a mn (Ethan Russel) but didn't do the same for her daughter (although the mn had the same initial - Abigail Louise not Abigail Lesley).
I have a friend whose father is the 7th Thomas James (known as Thos) but he would never write his name as Thomas James VII. I think it looks ridiculous.
As for naming a son after his father, it's not something I'd do, mainly because I think it's a bit boring and could be confusing. If I married a man whose family did that I would only do it if the family were desperate to continue this tradition and only if I genuinely liked the name (i.e. he was called Benjamin or Alexander) or if we could call the son by his middle name. I can't really imagine why anyone would get that worked up about continuing a name and if they were, it would probably make me more stubborn and fight against it!
I would, however consider using the father's name as a middle name. This is fairly popular over here and my brother has my dad's name as his middle name. Seems to be only a tradition for boys. I hardly know anyone who gives the mum's name as a mn for a girl. Maybe because women aren't so bothered or maybe because their names usually date more quickly. My friend gave her son her husband's fn as a mn (Ethan Russel) but didn't do the same for her daughter (although the mn had the same initial - Abigail Louise not Abigail Lesley).
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My husband never signed his name William James Lastname III. He signed it W. James Lastname, because he went by his middle name.
Likewise, my son never signs his name William James Lastname IV. He signs William J. Lastname.
The numbers are on their birth certificates, driver's licenses, and passports, but otherwise not used day-to-day.
Likewise, my son never signs his name William James Lastname IV. He signs William J. Lastname.
The numbers are on their birth certificates, driver's licenses, and passports, but otherwise not used day-to-day.
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I'm a male myself, and I'm not named after my father (thank God). It's extremely egotistic to name your son after his father. I believe that study. While it's common in the English-speaking world for a boy to be named after his father, it's frowned upon in many other cultures (such as Jewish and Muslim cultures). At least girls are rarely named after their mothers anymore. Worst of all is the nickname Junior. It's infantile and demeaning to boys and should be stopped cold turkey when the boy is 5.
I'd be fine having a grandson or great-grandson having the same name as me, but I'm not naming any son of mine after myself.
I'd be fine having a grandson or great-grandson having the same name as me, but I'm not naming any son of mine after myself.
This message was edited 9/6/2008, 7:56 AM
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I'm not sure. If the dad wanted a Junior of a "Number" I would probably go along with it, but I wouldn't be the one to suggest it. The biggest problem in my mind is all the confusion as far who's who goes when they get older.
My brother's friend Mark was know as Little Mark to his family for years but is now six inches taller than his dad and so that doesn't work. Also when people call and ask for Mark they sometimes don't know which one they want, because they've only met one of them. It's just really confusing.
His friend Jesse never had that problem because his dad goes by Jess.
My brother's friend Mark was know as Little Mark to his family for years but is now six inches taller than his dad and so that doesn't work. Also when people call and ask for Mark they sometimes don't know which one they want, because they've only met one of them. It's just really confusing.
His friend Jesse never had that problem because his dad goes by Jess.
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My family did something a bit different. My grandfather was named Daniel Joseph (Joseph after his grandfather), my father is named Daniel Philip (Philip after his uncle), and my brother is named Daniel James (James after two great uncles). I like the idea of passing a name down. I'm secretly hoping my brother has a son at some point and uses a family middle name.
As for me I think it would have to depend on the name. I went through school with a guy named Richard with a first name/surname combo along the same teasing lines as Dick Trickle. I couldn't imagine passing that one along and he was the fourth.
As for me I think it would have to depend on the name. I went through school with a guy named Richard with a first name/surname combo along the same teasing lines as Dick Trickle. I couldn't imagine passing that one along and he was the fourth.
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I feel pretty much the same as you, and in your position I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't start it, but if my husband wanted to carry it on I would probably so along with it.
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You named you son, so it's a done deal!
My family has a huge history of these names and reuse. I'm ok with it, but didn't stick to it since I'm the daughter. The boys can have that responsibility. It's great to honor, but also a huge pain depending on how often your family interacts, etc. Mail is a problem. Phone calls are a problem. We run a family business so that is even worse. Which Robert? We say that 10x a day. But it is tradition and family, which means more than convenience. There are fewer and fewer names passed down like this, so I would say 'way to go' and honestly I hope my brother keeps the tradition as well when he has kids.
My family has a huge history of these names and reuse. I'm ok with it, but didn't stick to it since I'm the daughter. The boys can have that responsibility. It's great to honor, but also a huge pain depending on how often your family interacts, etc. Mail is a problem. Phone calls are a problem. We run a family business so that is even worse. Which Robert? We say that 10x a day. But it is tradition and family, which means more than convenience. There are fewer and fewer names passed down like this, so I would say 'way to go' and honestly I hope my brother keeps the tradition as well when he has kids.
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This is kind of personal for me as my SO is a III as well. And he told me probably about a month into dating when we were casually discussing kids (how many we each wanted, etc...) and he mentioned he wanted at least one boy so he could continue the family name. At that point I had just thought he was a Jr. as he had already said he was named after his father. I must admit it sounded a lot more prominent, the idea of continuing the tradition when he was a third generation.
I didn't chime in on the prospect of naming a child after him at that time as it was too early on in the relationship to really comment but it did stick with me. Now that the relationship is serious and we have talked baby names just a little, I have informed him that I'm very ok with carrying on his family name if we are to have children someday (which I'm hoping will happen).
At first the idea wasn't that appealing as I have a whole laundry list of baby names that I adore and would love to use one day but the more I thought about it, the more I found it rather charming to continue the name and honor family. We're both two people who are traditionalists when it comes to naming, very into family names. Although he is more so than I, as I'm more about family names in the middle name spot where he wants all family names which I can live with if the name is something I also like.
I must say though it also helped that I do like his name (Edward Louis) so it wasn't hard to imagine using it. Edward was also my great-grandfather's name so it's also honoring my side too even if that wouldn't be the intention. I love classic names and you don't get much more regal (in my opinion at least) than Edward. We've also discussed naming a possible second son after an uncle of his who died, William. Which I'm also ok with as I like the name and I agreed to it as long as the middle name can be after my own father.
I didn't chime in on the prospect of naming a child after him at that time as it was too early on in the relationship to really comment but it did stick with me. Now that the relationship is serious and we have talked baby names just a little, I have informed him that I'm very ok with carrying on his family name if we are to have children someday (which I'm hoping will happen).
At first the idea wasn't that appealing as I have a whole laundry list of baby names that I adore and would love to use one day but the more I thought about it, the more I found it rather charming to continue the name and honor family. We're both two people who are traditionalists when it comes to naming, very into family names. Although he is more so than I, as I'm more about family names in the middle name spot where he wants all family names which I can live with if the name is something I also like.
I must say though it also helped that I do like his name (Edward Louis) so it wasn't hard to imagine using it. Edward was also my great-grandfather's name so it's also honoring my side too even if that wouldn't be the intention. I love classic names and you don't get much more regal (in my opinion at least) than Edward. We've also discussed naming a possible second son after an uncle of his who died, William. Which I'm also ok with as I like the name and I agreed to it as long as the middle name can be after my own father.
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eh ... this subject is hard for me. I would have a difficult time naming my son after his father. The reason being is because of the situation my brother is in. He's a Jr., named after our dad. My real dad treated him very badly when he was little and now my brother hates that he is named after him. He's even considering changing his name because of it. I don't see a problem with other people naming their kids Jr., lll, or lV, but I personally would be reluctant to.
Now, my boyfriend really wants to pass on his MN, Edward, to his first son. That I can deal with, it's just the juniors that I can't bring myself to do. Plus, Edward makes a handsome MN.
Now, my boyfriend really wants to pass on his MN, Edward, to his first son. That I can deal with, it's just the juniors that I can't bring myself to do. Plus, Edward makes a handsome MN.
This message was edited 9/5/2008, 9:39 PM
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I don't like it, honestley. It seems incredibly egotistical and uncreative, and I think every child deserves their own name and the chance to be their own person. I would fight my husband tooth and nail on this- particularly if he wanted a junior, or even a III. If it was say a 4th or 5th, I'd be more open to it, because I'm a big one for traditions, but even then I don't think I'd be happy. If he really felt strongly about it, I'd be willing to consider either or both names as middle names. Wether I liked the names or not wopuld have to be factored in, ofcourse.
That being said, I definitley don't feel as strongly about other people doing it- I don't like it, but each to their own, especially if they are carrying on a tradition, as in your case, and not simply just trying to recreate the son in the fathers image. I just really don't like it for my kids.
My aunty broke tradition when naming my cousin. They had boy/girl twins 6th years ago. My uncle, who is a Jr. wanted his son to be Frederick Vaughn the 3rd. My aunty said no way, not happening, so he was named James Frederick. His twin sister is Charlotte Sophie.
That being said, I definitley don't feel as strongly about other people doing it- I don't like it, but each to their own, especially if they are carrying on a tradition, as in your case, and not simply just trying to recreate the son in the fathers image. I just really don't like it for my kids.
My aunty broke tradition when naming my cousin. They had boy/girl twins 6th years ago. My uncle, who is a Jr. wanted his son to be Frederick Vaughn the 3rd. My aunty said no way, not happening, so he was named James Frederick. His twin sister is Charlotte Sophie.
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Uncreative? Yes, definitely. And my husband did have a streak of egotism, which was sometimes a bad thing and sometimes a good thing!
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So how do you feel about naming a son after his father? Only if I like his name to begin with I honestly can't see myself naming my child the name of his father if I don't like his name.
Is it something you would proactively do? No way
Or would you only go along with it if your SO wanted it? IF he really really wanted it I would consider, as long as he let's me pick a name I want for the next one.
Would you go along with it happily, or very reluctantly? Dunno
Is it something you would proactively do? No way
Or would you only go along with it if your SO wanted it? IF he really really wanted it I would consider, as long as he let's me pick a name I want for the next one.
Would you go along with it happily, or very reluctantly? Dunno
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Frankly, it depends on his name. :D Also how much he wanted to do it.
I met a kid named Henry Rudolph IV. I woulda carried that on in a second.
I also knew a Frederick Joseph V who said he was so determined to carry it on he would adopt a boy if he didn't have one and name him VI. I think I would have been okay with that too.
A lot of times these traditions frustrate me, though, because I think it's often originally a result of neither of the parents caring very much about names. Like once I asked this kid Max if he had a kid what would he would name it. He paused and said "max jr." If Max Jr thinks it's a neat tradition, or is as apathetic as his dad, you get a Max III, and then the pressure's on to name everyone else Max. Imagine being a VII. Could you NOT name a son after you? Idk if I could.
My dad's father, and both of his brothers, all had sons they named after themselves. Joseph Conrad Jr, Rudolph (U?) Jr, Arthur Philip Jr. I don't know what this was, exactly. They are all dead. I think Rudy had a Rudy III and I'm not sure about Arthur. I don't know if all of the brothers expected their sons to be like them... hm. I know that they had superbly rough relations though. Not so much my dad and his, but the other two definitely. The III's and IV's and V's I've known I don't think had rough relations? I dunno. It's interesting. My history professor thinks it's a really interesting phenomenon. Is it because America is such a young country and it is trying to compensate by imitating aristocracy? he hypothesized. Or maybe it is an attempt to imitate aristocracy where there's not an official aristocracy in America? Although there is a de facto aristocracy in America... mainly it is mainly the members of this class that adhere to this practice?
I met a kid named Henry Rudolph IV. I woulda carried that on in a second.
I also knew a Frederick Joseph V who said he was so determined to carry it on he would adopt a boy if he didn't have one and name him VI. I think I would have been okay with that too.
A lot of times these traditions frustrate me, though, because I think it's often originally a result of neither of the parents caring very much about names. Like once I asked this kid Max if he had a kid what would he would name it. He paused and said "max jr." If Max Jr thinks it's a neat tradition, or is as apathetic as his dad, you get a Max III, and then the pressure's on to name everyone else Max. Imagine being a VII. Could you NOT name a son after you? Idk if I could.
My dad's father, and both of his brothers, all had sons they named after themselves. Joseph Conrad Jr, Rudolph (U?) Jr, Arthur Philip Jr. I don't know what this was, exactly. They are all dead. I think Rudy had a Rudy III and I'm not sure about Arthur. I don't know if all of the brothers expected their sons to be like them... hm. I know that they had superbly rough relations though. Not so much my dad and his, but the other two definitely. The III's and IV's and V's I've known I don't think had rough relations? I dunno. It's interesting. My history professor thinks it's a really interesting phenomenon. Is it because America is such a young country and it is trying to compensate by imitating aristocracy? he hypothesized. Or maybe it is an attempt to imitate aristocracy where there's not an official aristocracy in America? Although there is a de facto aristocracy in America... mainly it is mainly the members of this class that adhere to this practice?
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Well, i agree with what you did, you wern't starting a tradition you were carrying it on. I think if thats really what my SO wanted then i would, it would probably drive me nuts though because i love names soo much i would want to make one myself. If he wanted to just name him after him i would concider it depending what his name is and if i didn;t like his name maybe choose a name that is similar.
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