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Help[Opinions] Re: ditto (m)
in reply to a message by vigdis
Hmm. For me the difference, and it's not much of a difference, is that historical figures like composers and poets and writers tend to represent something larger and more abstract than themselves, and something more specific and (IMO) less self-deluding than "family history." They become avatars for things like... I dunno, for example Haydn for me is sort of like the greek god of sunshine happiness. And if I were to honor an old ancestor, even if it were one who had a good life, it would be like honoring the greek god of please-let-me-stay-important-I-dont-want-to-die-can-I-earn-my-way-to-not-dying-by-living-well?.
I say this as someone who used to comb obsessively over family trees and want to honor ancestors from generations and generations ago. I'm talking about my own former feelings.
I say this as someone who used to comb obsessively over family trees and want to honor ancestors from generations and generations ago. I'm talking about my own former feelings.
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See I find that boring
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Are you saying that you don't find me as fascinating as those works of art? That's okay. I find myself every bit as fascinating. LOL
I do think that most people find themselves fascinating, though.
I do think that most people find themselves fascinating, though.
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That is exactly why you will always hear someone going on about researching their own family, and never a total stranger's.
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*nods head in agreement.*
Ugh
Ugh
This message was edited 7/30/2012, 7:17 PM
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Got it. :-D
The people I'm most interested in honoring - Helen (she was missionary who went to India and spent thirty years there, wrote a poem about how idiotic it was that female missionaries were told to get married), Judie (A doctor in the 1950s, basically gave the finger to that time period and did what she wanted) and Hulda (came to the US at 17) all have one thing in common: They lived with courage, did what they wanted to do and refused to allow expectations to dictate their life. Kinda of the way I wish I was - and very much the way I hope my daughter will be. (Oddly enough there aren't very many men I want to honor, just my grandfather Leonard who was a very kind man, and partly want to honor my dad. Mixed feelings on the latter.)
The people I'm most interested in honoring - Helen (she was missionary who went to India and spent thirty years there, wrote a poem about how idiotic it was that female missionaries were told to get married), Judie (A doctor in the 1950s, basically gave the finger to that time period and did what she wanted) and Hulda (came to the US at 17) all have one thing in common: They lived with courage, did what they wanted to do and refused to allow expectations to dictate their life. Kinda of the way I wish I was - and very much the way I hope my daughter will be. (Oddly enough there aren't very many men I want to honor, just my grandfather Leonard who was a very kind man, and partly want to honor my dad. Mixed feelings on the latter.)
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what is self-deluding about family history?
Anyone can claim to honor a famous composer but there are only so many people who can honor your family tree.... so why not?
Anyone can claim to honor a famous composer but there are only so many people who can honor your family tree.... so why not?
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Well for me it was... I just didn't know anything about any of those people, and they knew nothing about me. I can be aware that they had some quality or another, but it means something only abstractly. It would actually mean very little. Once your family tree extends beyond people you knew personally, or beyond people who knew people you know personally, it becomes basically arbitrary. This sperm and this egg... would have been different ten minutes later. It probably would have changed your family's direction, but you've got no way of knowing how, and no real business being interested, kwim?
Whereas with composers and whatnot, I have a very tight, personal relationship with what I would be representing through honoring them. The fact that other people can honor them and can't honor my ancestors... does not cause any blips on my radar at all.
Whereas with composers and whatnot, I have a very tight, personal relationship with what I would be representing through honoring them. The fact that other people can honor them and can't honor my ancestors... does not cause any blips on my radar at all.
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but I am interested :)
Most of those family names I'd consider for honoring I've chosen because to me they represent not so much the person individually, but the relationships within that whole family. Like, I never met my maternal grandmother but I've ALWAYS wished that I had. No, I don't know that much about her personally but I know that my mother and grandfather really loved her and she is what connects us all - the "catalyst" so to speak - so using her name is sort of a way for me to honor all three of them, in addition to my aunts, whom I'm also close with
Most of those family names I'd consider for honoring I've chosen because to me they represent not so much the person individually, but the relationships within that whole family. Like, I never met my maternal grandmother but I've ALWAYS wished that I had. No, I don't know that much about her personally but I know that my mother and grandfather really loved her and she is what connects us all - the "catalyst" so to speak - so using her name is sort of a way for me to honor all three of them, in addition to my aunts, whom I'm also close with
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I love that - 'catalyst.' I feel the exact same way.
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That makes sense.
Here's the odd thing for me:
I have no problem honoring Judie, Hulda and Helen because they embody qualities I like. I do have problems honoring my dad and people I know personally - because I know them too well. It's almost as if I would be honoring all of the person, including the bad. With the three above I'm honoring the spirit of adventure and doing what you want, so perhaps it's not strictly family honoring. I don't know - this has been a fascinating conversation that has made me do a lot of thinking.
Here's the odd thing for me:
I have no problem honoring Judie, Hulda and Helen because they embody qualities I like. I do have problems honoring my dad and people I know personally - because I know them too well. It's almost as if I would be honoring all of the person, including the bad. With the three above I'm honoring the spirit of adventure and doing what you want, so perhaps it's not strictly family honoring. I don't know - this has been a fascinating conversation that has made me do a lot of thinking.
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Right, I feel like you have a closer relationship with your ancestors than most people just because of circumstance. But that might not be true, and it's not my place to judge anyway. Any opinion anyone has is going to come from their own experience, and I just know that once I figured out my motives for being family tree obsessed I got a little disenchanted.
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Same here. A while ago, I tried starting a family tree and was enjoying it until I realized a lot of it had to do with fear of death. Then it got to a point when the people in my line were nothing more than names on a piece of paper, and that I knew nothing about them- not their likes and dislikes, their hobbies, their favorite color, nothing . I felt no connection to those people other than, "Well, they bumped uglies and made more people who bumped uglies until that made me . La dee da."
I know that one day I will just be a name on a piece of paper, if I'm lucky. But you know what? That's all right. I'm enjoying what I have now, and that's already more than what anyone can hope for. Immortality is a great idea, but isn't there for most people.
I know that one day I will just be a name on a piece of paper, if I'm lucky. But you know what? That's all right. I'm enjoying what I have now, and that's already more than what anyone can hope for. Immortality is a great idea, but isn't there for most people.
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Every human being is flawed. If I had a son tomorrow, his middle name would be Michael, despite the fact that my dad has done some cowardly, messed up things. There is "bad" in him, but that's part of what makes him beautiful. The whole package, so to speak.
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I think I just have issues with honoring my dad. I don't mind honoring my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, my brother or even my mother (and she was NOT that great of a mom when I was younger) but I do have problems with my dad. Kinda of odd. Thankfully, though, it's unlikely that we'll have more than one child and we've already have the names set in stone - Judith Cecilia and Thomas Alan or Michael Alan. (Depends on whether or not someone uses Thomas or Michael first, highly likely.)
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Nothing wrong with that. Like you said, this has become quite an interesting thread, and it's giving people something to think about in terms of honoring and family connection.
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