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Help[Opinions] WDYT of nicknames, and help choosing a nickname... EDITED to add link
What do you all think of nicknames?
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all?
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks!
Here are our options for Nadine:
- Din-din (very Filipino, my husband's choice)
- Nin (my choice)
- NiNing (our compromise, it's a term of endearment)
- Deenie
- Nady or Nadie (does this sound like naughty too much?)
- Dean
- Nadz
- other options, etc?
The more unusual the nickname the better for Filipinos, according to Julius. I am rooting for Nin, because my all-time favorite nickname is actually Min.
In case you are confused by the idea of outrageous nicknames, here are
SOME LINKS ON FILIPINO NICKNAMING STYLE:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9435751.stm
http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11268
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_name (see "other naming patterns")
http://askthepinoy.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-are-filipino-nicknames-repetitive.html
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all?
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks!
Here are our options for Nadine:
- Din-din (very Filipino, my husband's choice)
- Nin (my choice)
- NiNing (our compromise, it's a term of endearment)
- Deenie
- Nady or Nadie (does this sound like naughty too much?)
- Dean
- Nadz
- other options, etc?
The more unusual the nickname the better for Filipinos, according to Julius. I am rooting for Nin, because my all-time favorite nickname is actually Min.
In case you are confused by the idea of outrageous nicknames, here are
SOME LINKS ON FILIPINO NICKNAMING STYLE:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9435751.stm
http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11268
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_name (see "other naming patterns")
http://askthepinoy.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-are-filipino-nicknames-repetitive.html
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 10:15 AM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
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Replies
I tried to set up a middle name for Miriam beforehand - I wanted to call her Merry Mae. It never worked. I've tried a few times to create a nickname for her - it hasn't stuck. I'm not sure why, as my family is really big into nicknames. But Miriam is Miriam.
I really don't care what people call my daughter. My mom refers to her as Miriam Elizabeth, my brother calls her Miriam Mae and we call her Miss Mae when she's in trouble. I'm actually surprised that my family hasn't created a nickname for her - they have done this for all the other grandchildren.
As for your choices I'd go with Nin. It's cute, sweet and simple.
I really don't care what people call my daughter. My mom refers to her as Miriam Elizabeth, my brother calls her Miriam Mae and we call her Miss Mae when she's in trouble. I'm actually surprised that my family hasn't created a nickname for her - they have done this for all the other grandchildren.
As for your choices I'd go with Nin. It's cute, sweet and simple.
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I like Miss Mae. :)
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*nickname, not middle name.
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Dina might work, thanks!
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You're not going to explain the joke at the end of the last link, are you. *sad*
By the way, I have a question for you. I met a boy named Pasatee who went by Tee (all of the time except on school paperwork). Is it a Filipino name, or can you recognize or theorize any way it could be one? I haven't been able to find it anywhere and it seems possible he was Filipino. I don't have the surname.
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all?
Evolve naturally! Unless you used a longer name just to have it. Like if you wanted to call your kid Alex so you named him Alexander, then you'd likely call him Alex from day one.
I had planned a nickname for my daughter but it didn't seem natural. The nicknames that stick are the ones that spring up out of genuine affection, not anxious affectation. You could make a list of possibilities, and try them out, but I think nicks have to arise and stick to born babies/children.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
It wouldn't bother me unless the nick happened to be one I really hated. But if my child liked it, I'd live with it. Just wouldn't use it.
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture.
Seriously, they nickname babies before birth? According to those articles the nicknames often come from traits or experiences. That'd make a lot more sense to me. I think if I had to come up with a nick before birth I'd pick something generic, that I'd like if it stuck but that wouldn't be hard to get rid of. NiNing seems good for that purpose and as her mother, maybe you could shorten it to Nin just for yourself. I'm betting she'll end up being Din-din, which is fun, and fine, since among Americans she'll probably choose to go by Nadine a lot of the time anyway and only give nickname privileges to her familiar friends. You think? I'm personally partial to the name Deenie.
By the way, I have a question for you. I met a boy named Pasatee who went by Tee (all of the time except on school paperwork). Is it a Filipino name, or can you recognize or theorize any way it could be one? I haven't been able to find it anywhere and it seems possible he was Filipino. I don't have the surname.
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all?
Evolve naturally! Unless you used a longer name just to have it. Like if you wanted to call your kid Alex so you named him Alexander, then you'd likely call him Alex from day one.
I had planned a nickname for my daughter but it didn't seem natural. The nicknames that stick are the ones that spring up out of genuine affection, not anxious affectation. You could make a list of possibilities, and try them out, but I think nicks have to arise and stick to born babies/children.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
It wouldn't bother me unless the nick happened to be one I really hated. But if my child liked it, I'd live with it. Just wouldn't use it.
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture.
Seriously, they nickname babies before birth? According to those articles the nicknames often come from traits or experiences. That'd make a lot more sense to me. I think if I had to come up with a nick before birth I'd pick something generic, that I'd like if it stuck but that wouldn't be hard to get rid of. NiNing seems good for that purpose and as her mother, maybe you could shorten it to Nin just for yourself. I'm betting she'll end up being Din-din, which is fun, and fine, since among Americans she'll probably choose to go by Nadine a lot of the time anyway and only give nickname privileges to her familiar friends. You think? I'm personally partial to the name Deenie.
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 8:00 PM
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The Joke
Actually it's a dirty joke or a crude real-life scenario.
You see, the little girl's nickname translates similarly to calling your kid "pussypussy" or some other such slang term.
Her response to the host (when he asked why she was named this) was "well, when I was born, I was so big I tore my mother's 'private parts'" - except she didn't say "private parts".
It's funny because she was very young, and because the nickname is outrageous even by Filipino standards!
Actually it's a dirty joke or a crude real-life scenario.
You see, the little girl's nickname translates similarly to calling your kid "pussypussy" or some other such slang term.
Her response to the host (when he asked why she was named this) was "well, when I was born, I was so big I tore my mother's 'private parts'" - except she didn't say "private parts".
It's funny because she was very young, and because the nickname is outrageous even by Filipino standards!
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Most people call Clary by the full Clarisse, so I love it.
It's my decision to choose before. It happens in the smaller villages a lot. I was nervous his family would pick something just awful. . . especially considering they are all rooting for Din-din.
I mean his brother Roberto is called JoJong and his mother is called MamaChing (though I call her Mama Cita), he has a cousin Bulong and an Aunt Basing.
Checking on the Pasatee thing for you. . .
It's my decision to choose before. It happens in the smaller villages a lot. I was nervous his family would pick something just awful. . . especially considering they are all rooting for Din-din.
I mean his brother Roberto is called JoJong and his mother is called MamaChing (though I call her Mama Cita), he has a cousin Bulong and an Aunt Basing.
Checking on the Pasatee thing for you. . .
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1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all?
I always plan nicknames for longer names, but I've also never actually had a baby. :) For instance, for something like Marcella or Leonardo, I would have Marcy or Leo planned. For a name like Nadine that's already pretty short and sweet, I think it might just have to come naturally.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
It would probably bother me if they used a different nickname, but I'd be happy if they used the full name. Planning nicknames is like a defense mechanism - "will my family/friends accept the full Georgiana? They may be apprehensive, but they'd call her Genie for sure!" If they called her Georgiana in full, I'd be stoked. If they called her Ana or something unrelated just because they preferred it, I might be a little peeved. (There are exceptions - if I had a Charles and my family called him Chuck, I'd think it was adorable.)
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks!
Congrats on being due so soon! My vote goes to Deenie! That's so cute. Nadie doesn't sound like naughty but does remind me of Nakie/Nude. Nadz might be unfortunate.
I always plan nicknames for longer names, but I've also never actually had a baby. :) For instance, for something like Marcella or Leonardo, I would have Marcy or Leo planned. For a name like Nadine that's already pretty short and sweet, I think it might just have to come naturally.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? (most people don't use Clarisse's nickname)
It would probably bother me if they used a different nickname, but I'd be happy if they used the full name. Planning nicknames is like a defense mechanism - "will my family/friends accept the full Georgiana? They may be apprehensive, but they'd call her Genie for sure!" If they called her Georgiana in full, I'd be stoked. If they called her Ana or something unrelated just because they preferred it, I might be a little peeved. (There are exceptions - if I had a Charles and my family called him Chuck, I'd think it was adorable.)
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks!
Congrats on being due so soon! My vote goes to Deenie! That's so cute. Nadie doesn't sound like naughty but does remind me of Nakie/Nude. Nadz might be unfortunate.
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 5:34 PM
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I love nicknames because I never had one. I always felt left out! I always said I'd give my kids a name that can have a nickname, and so I did.
1. I pick one beforehand, whichever seems best for them. Sometimes it can change, and of course when they're older maybe they'll choose to use a different one at school or something.
2. Yes, but I can't imagine that happening. It would be pretty rude to refuse to call a kid something the parents ask you to call them, or to call them something the parents have specifically asked them not to be called.
3. I LOVE Nin! Gets my vote.
1. I pick one beforehand, whichever seems best for them. Sometimes it can change, and of course when they're older maybe they'll choose to use a different one at school or something.
2. Yes, but I can't imagine that happening. It would be pretty rude to refuse to call a kid something the parents ask you to call them, or to call them something the parents have specifically asked them not to be called.
3. I LOVE Nin! Gets my vote.
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 1:35 PM
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Re: Using a different name at school. My niece, Greta, decided when she started kindergarten that she wanted to be called Margaret in school. She likes her family to call her Greta still, but felt like she should use her formal name in school. She made an announcement to our family; it was pretty cute. It's only confusing when, at her birthday parties, everyone in the family sings "Happy birthday, dear Greta" and her schoolmates say "Margaret."
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Aw, that is cute to think of a kindergartener doing that! I'll be interested to see what Meg will choose to do with her name. She already knows that her name is actually Margaret and will respond with that when asked what her name is. But she obviously doesn't really get it yet! Ben struggled a lot with the full name/nick name concept, up through last year even.
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What do you all think of nicknames? -I like them in general. It depends on the name; some names lend themselves to NN and I would see myself using a NN rather than a full name, but some names I prefer just the full name.
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all? -Either works. I'm a nicknamer, so I tend to come up with things for people naturally, but I think picking a NN beforehand is fine, especially if it's a name with a lot of NN's and you like one in particular.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? -I might be annoyed if someone picked a different NN (for instance, if I wanted Elizabeth to be called Beth but people started calling her Lizzie). Of course, different people form different NN's for people, so if it were someone close to the person in question (for instance, if Elizabeth's husband affectionately called her Lizzie), it might be fine. I wouldn't mind if they called them by their given name.
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks! -Oh wow, I didn't know you were due so soon! Best wishes!
Here are our options for Nadine:
- Din-din (very Filipino, my husband's choice)- Reminds me of dinner.
- Nin (my choice)- I like this more than Din-din, but it sounds so insubstantial
- NiNing (our compromise, it's a term of endearment)- Not sure how to pronounce this. NEE-ning or NIH-ning?
- Deenie- An obvious choice for me, but I hate the sound of it.
- Nady or Nadie (does this sound like naughty too much?)- This is my choice. I don't think naughty when I hear it. I like the spelling Nadie. Reminiscent of Sadie.
1) Do you think it best to let them evolve naturally, pick one beforehand or not have one at all? -Either works. I'm a nicknamer, so I tend to come up with things for people naturally, but I think picking a NN beforehand is fine, especially if it's a name with a lot of NN's and you like one in particular.
2) Would it bother you if you chose a nickname and people picked a different one or refused to use one at all? -I might be annoyed if someone picked a different NN (for instance, if I wanted Elizabeth to be called Beth but people started calling her Lizzie). Of course, different people form different NN's for people, so if it were someone close to the person in question (for instance, if Elizabeth's husband affectionately called her Lizzie), it might be fine. I wouldn't mind if they called them by their given name.
3) Will you help us decide on a nickname? We will have to put it on the announcement because nicknames are really important in my husband's culture. We had to choose one for our daughter Clarisse (Clary or Clarybee) and now we have to choose one for baby due in a little less than 4 weeks! -Oh wow, I didn't know you were due so soon! Best wishes!
Here are our options for Nadine:
- Din-din (very Filipino, my husband's choice)- Reminds me of dinner.
- Nin (my choice)- I like this more than Din-din, but it sounds so insubstantial
- NiNing (our compromise, it's a term of endearment)- Not sure how to pronounce this. NEE-ning or NIH-ning?
- Deenie- An obvious choice for me, but I hate the sound of it.
- Nady or Nadie (does this sound like naughty too much?)- This is my choice. I don't think naughty when I hear it. I like the spelling Nadie. Reminiscent of Sadie.
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The combination idea is a good one. Her middles are Marikit and Irene.
Marr-ee-keet and ee-reh-neh
I did consider Ninkeet and NinMari.
Marikit translates directly to "beauty"... so we could always call her "Beauty" and it would fit the Filipino vibe.
My husband voted to give Clary the nickname "Princess" so I am sure he would like it!
Marr-ee-keet and ee-reh-neh
I did consider Ninkeet and NinMari.
Marikit translates directly to "beauty"... so we could always call her "Beauty" and it would fit the Filipino vibe.
My husband voted to give Clary the nickname "Princess" so I am sure he would like it!
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If your child will grow up among the American melting pot culture in addition to her dad's family culture, then I think it's important to consider how "normal" in Filippino culture might be received/reacted to in her wider community, since your daughter will be dealing with those reactions. Personally, I would not want to grow up in an English-speaking culture with a known nickname of Din-din or Nadz.
If the nickname must be repetitive or near-repetitive, then your NiNing seems best from your list, but I also think the suggestion of DeeDee/Dede is great and seems to fit comfortably all 'round.
In general, I don't think nicknames are really necessary (obviously in your case they are); often they do come about naturally and have nothing to do with the person's name. Ultimately, your daughter will decide what she likes to be called, even if it's something you don't care for. Personally, I have found that people who like you nickname you. I can call someone up on the phone who's known me a long time and say "hi, it's *my name*" and they will come back with "oh hi, *common nickname* ", despite my never ever having introduced myself by or signed my name by that nickname. I have a couple of parent-given nicknames and also one given by a family friend that stuck and is used occasionally. The nickname I use for myself, among my close circle, is one of the parent-given ones. Generally, I go by my full name and announce/introduce myself that way.
If the nickname must be repetitive or near-repetitive, then your NiNing seems best from your list, but I also think the suggestion of DeeDee/Dede is great and seems to fit comfortably all 'round.
In general, I don't think nicknames are really necessary (obviously in your case they are); often they do come about naturally and have nothing to do with the person's name. Ultimately, your daughter will decide what she likes to be called, even if it's something you don't care for. Personally, I have found that people who like you nickname you. I can call someone up on the phone who's known me a long time and say "hi, it's *my name*" and they will come back with "oh hi, *common nickname* ", despite my never ever having introduced myself by or signed my name by that nickname. I have a couple of parent-given nicknames and also one given by a family friend that stuck and is used occasionally. The nickname I use for myself, among my close circle, is one of the parent-given ones. Generally, I go by my full name and announce/introduce myself that way.
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 12:24 PM
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Thanks, and good points.
She'll be growing up in Thailand most likely, but with constant communication between the US and Philippines, as well as Italy. Names are a tough choice.
I also like the suggestions of Dede and cannot believe I didn't think of it.
She'll be growing up in Thailand most likely, but with constant communication between the US and Philippines, as well as Italy. Names are a tough choice.
I also like the suggestions of Dede and cannot believe I didn't think of it.
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1) I think let them evolve. She'll probably have a ton of nicknames before she's one, and one will eventually stick - or maybe several!
2) Not really. I'd still call her my favourite nn (unless she hated it) and that would be my special pet name for her - nobody else has to use it.
3) Nadie & Deeny seem most natural to me. NiNing is cute.
Nadou, Dina, Nida, Didi, Dida & Nani (nahnee) all also come to mind.
2) Not really. I'd still call her my favourite nn (unless she hated it) and that would be my special pet name for her - nobody else has to use it.
3) Nadie & Deeny seem most natural to me. NiNing is cute.
Nadou, Dina, Nida, Didi, Dida & Nani (nahnee) all also come to mind.
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For Nadine I like Nin or NiNing. I don't think Nadie is too much like naughty. I also like Deedee as another poster suggested.
This message was edited 6/29/2016, 1:10 PM
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1) I'm Australian, so I'm all for nicknames. Whichever way they come about. And as many as possible.
2) I like Nin the best out of those. I'd probably go with Nay myself. It feels like a natural shortening.
Din-din is cutsy poo baby slang for dinner. That's pretty bad.
But Nadz is even worse. Nads is pretty common slang for gonads here (as in "she kicked me in the nads! Hurt like a bugger!"). I would be staying wellll away from that one.
NiNing is pretty cute! I don't see it aging well, but you could always drop it down to Nin.
2) I like Nin the best out of those. I'd probably go with Nay myself. It feels like a natural shortening.
Din-din is cutsy poo baby slang for dinner. That's pretty bad.
But Nadz is even worse. Nads is pretty common slang for gonads here (as in "she kicked me in the nads! Hurt like a bugger!"). I would be staying wellll away from that one.
NiNing is pretty cute! I don't see it aging well, but you could always drop it down to Nin.
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What do I think of nicknames:
I think you can always choose one for your child, but you should never think of it as "this is what everyone will call her." Many of your family members will probably call her by her given name, or the child may even reject the nickname themselves (this happened to one of my friends. Her parents wanted to call her Katie, she wasn't having it.)
Also, as the child grows they will likely have nicknames from just about everyone... grandparents, school friends... and you might not like them all, you might not understand them all, but eh-- they'll happen.
1) I do think it is best to let them evolve naturally. If something feels to forced it won't get used, which is something I think often when people suggest pretty far fetched nicknames for a specific given name on these boards.
2) It wouldn't bother me personally.
3) I think Dean and Deenie are the coolest, because I think using the last syllable is a bit less common.
Din-din & Nin are cute, but... do they come out naturally for you? For your community?
I think Nadie is very pretty, actually. I say Nay-dee though, you may be saying Nah-dee?
I think you can always choose one for your child, but you should never think of it as "this is what everyone will call her." Many of your family members will probably call her by her given name, or the child may even reject the nickname themselves (this happened to one of my friends. Her parents wanted to call her Katie, she wasn't having it.)
Also, as the child grows they will likely have nicknames from just about everyone... grandparents, school friends... and you might not like them all, you might not understand them all, but eh-- they'll happen.
1) I do think it is best to let them evolve naturally. If something feels to forced it won't get used, which is something I think often when people suggest pretty far fetched nicknames for a specific given name on these boards.
2) It wouldn't bother me personally.
3) I think Dean and Deenie are the coolest, because I think using the last syllable is a bit less common.
Din-din & Nin are cute, but... do they come out naturally for you? For your community?
I think Nadie is very pretty, actually. I say Nay-dee though, you may be saying Nah-dee?
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Thanks. I think my thoughts mirror yours closely.
The whole nickname-as-a-cultural-mandate is new to me and hard to grasp. I generally like nicknames that make sense or are well known (Kitty for Katherine is uncommon, but known, for example).
In the Philippines, the more outrageous the nickname, the better I guess. I'm going to link some articles on this...
The whole nickname-as-a-cultural-mandate is new to me and hard to grasp. I generally like nicknames that make sense or are well known (Kitty for Katherine is uncommon, but known, for example).
In the Philippines, the more outrageous the nickname, the better I guess. I'm going to link some articles on this...
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I look forward to reading them. It is interesting the cultural differences in naming practices for sure. :)
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1) I like them when they evolve naturally. I don't really understand the purpose of a short nn for a two-syllable name, but then again, I tend to like nicknames that are actually longer than the full/official name.
2) Not really. My name's Victoria nn Tory. When people call me Victoria, it just feels slightly more formal (I prefer it nowadays). Some of my relatives called me Tor, and I didn't mind. I dislike being called Vicky, but whatever. It's like having a 4-in-1 first name, and I kinda like it.
3) Dean sounds the most natural to me, so that would be my pick. I think Nin is cute, too; it makes me think of Anais Nin.
Maybe:
Nia / Nyah
Dan
Dani
Hope
2) Not really. My name's Victoria nn Tory. When people call me Victoria, it just feels slightly more formal (I prefer it nowadays). Some of my relatives called me Tor, and I didn't mind. I dislike being called Vicky, but whatever. It's like having a 4-in-1 first name, and I kinda like it.
3) Dean sounds the most natural to me, so that would be my pick. I think Nin is cute, too; it makes me think of Anais Nin.
Maybe:
Nia / Nyah
Dan
Dani
Hope
This message was edited 11/10/2015, 8:34 AM
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In general I think it's best to let a nickname come naturally, or not, as the case may be. If you do pick one, you should be prepared for it to be cast aside later on, and not get attached to it; it's not your name to be called by, after all.
Din-Din is awful; it's like a cutesy-poo way of saying dinner: "Din din, Morris!" like in the cat-food commercials, or like in the movie Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, where "din din" turned out to be a dead bird.
Nadz is definitely out also, because it sounds just like gonads.
If it was me, I'd use nina or Dina. Some might like Nay-Nay.
Don't like Nin because it reminds me of ninny.
Din-Din is awful; it's like a cutesy-poo way of saying dinner: "Din din, Morris!" like in the cat-food commercials, or like in the movie Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, where "din din" turned out to be a dead bird.
Nadz is definitely out also, because it sounds just like gonads.
If it was me, I'd use nina or Dina. Some might like Nay-Nay.
Don't like Nin because it reminds me of ninny.
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Yeah, I explained the "dinner" connotation to my husband, but he is holding out hope. It's the most common nickname suggested by his family. Funnily, Nadz is the second suggestion, from his mom.
Nadz is nah-dz instead of nad-z, but I see your point, and thanks.
Nina I like! But Nena is a name for a first daughter and she is the second so he may not go for it.
Nadz is nah-dz instead of nad-z, but I see your point, and thanks.
Nina I like! But Nena is a name for a first daughter and she is the second so he may not go for it.
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