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Help[Opinions] Re: The judgment makes me uncomfortable
in reply to a message by queenv
Sheesh. I'd rather just assume they developed their own naming culture because they in fact do have their own American subculture, which means more to them as a context than dominant white culture. It doesn't have to be characterized as a response to white oppression. (Even if it does seem to sometimes be vaguely like a threatening middle finger to the dominant white culture, resulting in some white people feeling they need to put it down.) Shall we also say that poor whites developed their naming culture as a response to poverty or lack of "proper" liberal education? Is Heavynleigh's mother just flipping the bird at someone? or maybe she really thinks it's a great name! It seems patronizing to me to say African-American naming culture is just a reaction to oppression ... as if nothing about African American culture is just authentically culture, and what they do is all ultimately caused by white racism. I think it is authentically just culture, and there is actually nothing wrong with it that needs to be justified by invoking reaction to racism ... and I think it can be so without minimizing the real impacts of oppression, either. Feel free to tell me why you think I am wrong, anybody, I would like to understand why if you think I am.
- mirfak
- mirfak
This message was edited 7/16/2017, 3:08 PM
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Replies
I think you're wrong because African-Americans happily used the names that whites did until the 1960s Civil Rights Era. It was when they started refusing to accept white oppression that the naming culture originated. I think that that rebellion caused them to want to express pride in their race, and naming was a way to do that. The rebellion and pride were a reaction to the oppression.
I think you're wrong because Mohammed Ali said that Cassius Clay was his slave name.
I don't think that all blacks, especially nowadays, who use African-American names are consciously thinking when they choose the name, "Take that, white oppression", but that's still how the naming culture originated.
I also think it doesn't really matter. It's still offensive to ridicule the names of another culture, when you are not of that culture, and the reason that you find the name ridiculous is that you're not of that culture. It's no different than ridiculing Native American names. (I know that your response didn't justify ridiculing the names, just making the point at this time.)
I think you're wrong because Mohammed Ali said that Cassius Clay was his slave name.
I don't think that all blacks, especially nowadays, who use African-American names are consciously thinking when they choose the name, "Take that, white oppression", but that's still how the naming culture originated.
I also think it doesn't really matter. It's still offensive to ridicule the names of another culture, when you are not of that culture, and the reason that you find the name ridiculous is that you're not of that culture. It's no different than ridiculing Native American names. (I know that your response didn't justify ridiculing the names, just making the point at this time.)
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Also...
Since when are Sir and Rumi solely African-American names? Sir is not a name at all and Rumi is a Japanese name. Even the poet that bore this name was not African-American so I find the argument that we don't understand these names because we're not African-American to be ridiculous.
If Beyoncé named her twins floorlamp and televisionset would that still be just African-American culture?
Its not evil or racist to dislike a name just because it's the name of an African-American couple.
Since when are Sir and Rumi solely African-American names? Sir is not a name at all and Rumi is a Japanese name. Even the poet that bore this name was not African-American so I find the argument that we don't understand these names because we're not African-American to be ridiculous.
If Beyoncé named her twins floorlamp and televisionset would that still be just African-American culture?
Its not evil or racist to dislike a name just because it's the name of an African-American couple.
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The only African American who posted in this thread seemed to think that Sir is an African-American name. That alone is a good enough source for me. But if not for that, it is along the lines of title names that are popular among African-Americans, as LillieMae87 pointed out.
No, if Beyonce named her twins Floorlamp and Televisionset it would not still be just African-American culture. Please see my post in which I said that if she'd named him Boo Boo Bear, that would have been different.
No, if Beyonce named her twins Floorlamp and Televisionset it would not still be just African-American culture. Please see my post in which I said that if she'd named him Boo Boo Bear, that would have been different.
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I have to agree in this thread queenv.
African Americans have used names like Major, King, Corporal, Messiah, Deacon... all titles in the same sense that occupational names were once used in England.
This practice actually predates civil rights era and goes back to colonialism. When women were named Queen and Princess, etc.
African Americans have used names like Major, King, Corporal, Messiah, Deacon... all titles in the same sense that occupational names were once used in England.
This practice actually predates civil rights era and goes back to colonialism. When women were named Queen and Princess, etc.
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I understand what you're saying. I even think that rebellion to white naming culture started even before the civil rights era (but maybe that just my impression?) But what you're saying is that people can't also just have a gut reaction about the sounds of a name. I feel like this response is also saying that I can't LIKE a name from another culture, because I don't know enough about it. I like A LOT of names from other cultures without knowing how they work in there respective origins, so I feel like I should be able to dislike them also. And let me reiterate this is solely on sound, as I would have no other cultural references.
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Actually, yes, I say you're not allowed to like an African-American name, either. You aren't allowed, and I'm not allowed, because we can't and we don't relate to them.
I've said here, more than once, when an African-American name has been included on a list, "I don't attempt to judge this because I'm not of this culture."
Saying you like the name sounds a lot nicer so it's more likely to get a pass, but the principle is the same.
I've said here, more than once, when an African-American name has been included on a list, "I don't attempt to judge this because I'm not of this culture."
Saying you like the name sounds a lot nicer so it's more likely to get a pass, but the principle is the same.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 6:51 AM
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That's just ridiculous and divisive though. Who gets to decide which names are of which culture?
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You know, I didn't want to bring this up, because this is how it always turns out. I only started talking about it after BlackOpinion said something. I felt that I had to show some support at that point. Always, always, always, there are some people who don't get it. I can explain as nicely as I can until I'm blue in the face, and those people will still not get it. I did have some hope that this time it might be different, because an African-American backed up what I've been saying all along, but apparently not. Anyone who doesn't get it now will never get it, so there's no point in continuing. Therefore this will be my last post.
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You're essentially saying no one can have an opinion on any name. This attitude feels too broad- like I am also not allowed to enjoy or dislike any ethnic food because I didn't grow up eating it.
I would not seriously consider using a name that's way outside of my culture, but I still entertain the idea of liking it.
I understand that there are certain sounds or roots in names that, if not used in the culture you're from, puts them at a disadvantage as far as how familiarity plays into what one finds pleasing or not. That I get. But I also personally like a lot of names that sound odd to English speakers.
I would not seriously consider using a name that's way outside of my culture, but I still entertain the idea of liking it.
I understand that there are certain sounds or roots in names that, if not used in the culture you're from, puts them at a disadvantage as far as how familiarity plays into what one finds pleasing or not. That I get. But I also personally like a lot of names that sound odd to English speakers.
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No, I'm not saying that no one can have an opinion on any name. I'm saying that white people should take themselves out of the equation when it comes to African-American names in particular. Yes, I believe that, because of the particular history of race relations in the US. I think white non-Americans in particular may not understand this.
I think I'm more sensitive to this issue than most white Americans because I have a black boyfriend and have always had mostly white friends, and have seen my friends' little smirks and raised eyebrows about his nickname and the names of his younger relatives.
As far as a gut reaction, nobody can really help that, but I think that after the gut reaction should come the non-gut reaction of "I am not part of this culture, and there are particular race-related issues here, so I need to realize that my gut reaction has no validity."
I personally don't judge any name that isn't part of my culture. If it's a foreign name that has become common in my culture, such as the French names Nicole and Danielle, then I do, but otherwise no. Even the name Lars, which was recently asked about, I feel is too far outside my culture to judge. But I don't hold everyone to that standard about names outside of their cultures, for most cultures. It's just white / African-American that I feel strongly should be exempt.
I think that Sir as a name is a reflection of African-American naming culture. If Beyonce had named her son Boo-Boo Bear, that would have been different.
I think I'm more sensitive to this issue than most white Americans because I have a black boyfriend and have always had mostly white friends, and have seen my friends' little smirks and raised eyebrows about his nickname and the names of his younger relatives.
As far as a gut reaction, nobody can really help that, but I think that after the gut reaction should come the non-gut reaction of "I am not part of this culture, and there are particular race-related issues here, so I need to realize that my gut reaction has no validity."
I personally don't judge any name that isn't part of my culture. If it's a foreign name that has become common in my culture, such as the French names Nicole and Danielle, then I do, but otherwise no. Even the name Lars, which was recently asked about, I feel is too far outside my culture to judge. But I don't hold everyone to that standard about names outside of their cultures, for most cultures. It's just white / African-American that I feel strongly should be exempt.
I think that Sir as a name is a reflection of African-American naming culture. If Beyonce had named her son Boo-Boo Bear, that would have been different.
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i see. I was speaking a bit more broadly about different cultures in general, and those further removed from white American culture. I can understand where the black/white dynamic is particularly hairy in America. And if that's a rule you yourself use with all foreign names that's admirable, though I still wonder if you don't give positive opinions more space. I certainly cannot restrain myself there.
I would also like to say that to me there is still a difference between using a title name, which happens to follow African American naming trends, and using a title name that is also a VERY common, everyday word. Naming him, Knight or even Junior, OR naming a daughter M'lady are different to me than naming a son Sir.
I would also like to say that to me there is still a difference between using a title name, which happens to follow African American naming trends, and using a title name that is also a VERY common, everyday word. Naming him, Knight or even Junior, OR naming a daughter M'lady are different to me than naming a son Sir.
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(This sounds horribly sarcastic and confrontational, my apologies. I honestly want to know your answer.)
I have a question for you: Do you think African-Americans can judge "white culture" names?
I do also think everyone has the right to an opinion. But just because I have an opinion doesn't mean it matters. So maybe what white people think doesn't matter to black people, but they still have the right to think.
I have a question for you: Do you think African-Americans can judge "white culture" names?
I do also think everyone has the right to an opinion. But just because I have an opinion doesn't mean it matters. So maybe what white people think doesn't matter to black people, but they still have the right to think.
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I'll answer this reluctantly, because I did want the above post to be my last on the subject.
Yes, because white culture names were not invented in an environment of oppression of whites by blacks and revolt against the oppression.
Yes, because white culture names were not invented in an environment of oppression of whites by blacks and revolt against the oppression.
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Thanks for answering! That's interesting. I see your point, though I disagree. I won't get into that, though; no more arguments on this topic.
ETA: Can I ask one more question? (Totally fine if you really don't want to say anything else, though.) So... do you think it is racist/wrong for her to use the name Rumi, which is the name of a Muslim poet?
ETA: Can I ask one more question? (Totally fine if you really don't want to say anything else, though.) So... do you think it is racist/wrong for her to use the name Rumi, which is the name of a Muslim poet?
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 11:57 AM
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I'd have to become a lot more educated on Islam before I could answer that.
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Ah, okay. Thanks anyways!
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I think you're now entering the realms of positive racism.
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I agree
People are allowed to like names from their own culture and other cultures and, shockingly, are allowed to use them! People are also allowed to dislike names from their own culture and other cultures. There are no rules about having an opinion on a name.
In my opinion, since this is the original intent of the topic, I would classify Sir as a typical "celebrity" name (in the league of Reign, Saint, Pilot Inspektor etc.), whether or not the celebrity who used it was black, white or purple, has no weight in my opinion. Sir is just going to cause confusion in general greetings/address/conversation down the road, and on that basis, and that basis only, my opinion is that I dislike it.
People are allowed to like names from their own culture and other cultures and, shockingly, are allowed to use them! People are also allowed to dislike names from their own culture and other cultures. There are no rules about having an opinion on a name.
In my opinion, since this is the original intent of the topic, I would classify Sir as a typical "celebrity" name (in the league of Reign, Saint, Pilot Inspektor etc.), whether or not the celebrity who used it was black, white or purple, has no weight in my opinion. Sir is just going to cause confusion in general greetings/address/conversation down the road, and on that basis, and that basis only, my opinion is that I dislike it.
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I honestly think that anyone who is not an American is not in the least qualified to speak to the subject of African-American cultural naming in particular. You may believe that white Americans approach the names with an open mind, but such is not the case. Please check out the comments for Shaniqua. That is what happens when white Americans think they can judge an African-American name.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 5:09 AM
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Well, I think you missed the intention of my post. And I will not be told by anyone that my opinion on a NAME is not valid, thanks. That's just opening up another can of worms that is off topic for a name opinions board.
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I don't think she was trying to tell you that your opinion isn't valid, at least not in a "you are not important" way. I think she was trying to say "Don't act like your opinion is CORRECT" or maybe "Your opinion is not more important than a black person's". I think everyone has the right to an opinion on a minority's name, but unless you are a member of that minority, your opinion isn't as important as theirs. I, personally, think Sir isn't that great, but it doesn't matter. I think, in general, opinions don't matter besides the opinions of person whose thing is being commented on, unless they're being used for fun discussion or debate.
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Never mind
Edited out what I originally said, because there's no point. I'm frustrated with myself and others right now. The reason that I'm frustrated with others should be obvious. I'm frustrated with myself because I know there is no point to this, and that it just makes me more pessimistic about race relations and makes me think a little less of humanity, I know I should not start this discussion. Now I know that even when the discussion is started by someone else, I should not add to it, it's just a long road into AAAUUUGGGHHH.
Edited out what I originally said, because there's no point. I'm frustrated with myself and others right now. The reason that I'm frustrated with others should be obvious. I'm frustrated with myself because I know there is no point to this, and that it just makes me more pessimistic about race relations and makes me think a little less of humanity, I know I should not start this discussion. Now I know that even when the discussion is started by someone else, I should not add to it, it's just a long road into AAAUUUGGGHHH.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 4:00 PM
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I want you to know that your replies are appreciated. They have been very inciteful, even if you didn't reach everyone in the way you wanted to.
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Thanks for saying this.
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Ok, but
It has nothing to do with my skin colour compared with the skin colour of the child being named. If the child was white, brown or green my opinion of naming a child Sir (especially in an English speaking country) is going to be the same - it will cause confusion in everyday life and I dislike it. In no way at any point did I say my opinion mattered more than any other poster's in this discussion (or anywhere on this planet). My point was that on a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour. It is the intended purpose of the board after all. My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of residence are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
Some of this was in response to SlytherClaw but I'm not going to reply twice since I'm on my phone.
It has nothing to do with my skin colour compared with the skin colour of the child being named. If the child was white, brown or green my opinion of naming a child Sir (especially in an English speaking country) is going to be the same - it will cause confusion in everyday life and I dislike it. In no way at any point did I say my opinion mattered more than any other poster's in this discussion (or anywhere on this planet). My point was that on a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour. It is the intended purpose of the board after all. My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of residence are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
Some of this was in response to SlytherClaw but I'm not going to reply twice since I'm on my phone.
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Just because you would say the same about a white or green child being given the same name does not mean that you can say it about a black child being given the name. No, it doesn't. Because a white or a green child would not be given the name as part of their culture. And a white or green child would not have created that culture in an environment of historical oppression of white people or green people and in a milieu of resistance to that oppression.
I'm going to be blunt.
On a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour.
No, you don't, when it comes to African-American names.
My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of resident are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
When it comes to African-American names, yes, they are.
I was just blunt and I said it because obviously I have to be blunt. You are reeking of white privilege right now. And it is quite quite true that because you are an Australian, it's far more likely that you will have a lot less understanding of this issue than an American will, though God knows there a lot of Americans who could do with a lot more understanding.
I'm going to be blunt.
On a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour.
No, you don't, when it comes to African-American names.
My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of resident are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
When it comes to African-American names, yes, they are.
I was just blunt and I said it because obviously I have to be blunt. You are reeking of white privilege right now. And it is quite quite true that because you are an Australian, it's far more likely that you will have a lot less understanding of this issue than an American will, though God knows there a lot of Americans who could do with a lot more understanding.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 8:34 PM
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So if I were to follow your above statements
(and not the general guidelines of the board) I have to now preface every response to a poster on this name opinions board with my identifying statisitics, ask them theirs (in case they are African-American), and if I am "allowed" to make a response to their post asking for opinions on names or if they would like my response?
Curious to know, but this topic is probably dead now anyway...
(and not the general guidelines of the board) I have to now preface every response to a poster on this name opinions board with my identifying statisitics, ask them theirs (in case they are African-American), and if I am "allowed" to make a response to their post asking for opinions on names or if they would like my response?
Curious to know, but this topic is probably dead now anyway...
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LOL No. All I'd ask is that if you recognize an African-American name, you decline to comment. If you make an honest mistake because you didn't recognize a name as such, well, we all make mistakes. I'd just hope that if that happened and you'd made a negative comment and if all this whole can of worms were opened up again (but I'm not planning to open it), that you'd just say, "Oh I didn't recognize it as an African-American name" and leave it at that.
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Ok, thanks for replying.
Btw, I never made a negative comment in the original instance (as in the name was dumb etc.), all I said was that it would cause confusion.
Btw, I never made a negative comment in the original instance (as in the name was dumb etc.), all I said was that it would cause confusion.
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No, but if you had a poster make a list of names like Deshawn, Kaeshae, Princess, Arynthya, Caliyya, Kenetra, Sir, Marquis and Chiquita then I think it would be a good idea to maybe ASK if they are African-American before slamming those names. Or come at it like, "I don't think I can judge these names fairly because I am not apart of the naming culture from which they came- a naming culture that arose solely due to oppression."
That is the difference between judging say, a Japanese name, and an African-American name- Japanese names come from a long standing language of a people who built an empire and their culture and language persist today without oppression. The African-American naming culture is unique in that it came from using elements of English names to create new names that were not associated with the whites who oppressed them and owned them for hundreds of years and that are not associated with the dominant white culture that still oppresses.
ETA: If given a list, I think it would be fair to comment that Sir might cause some confusion for the kid because it is a commonly used title for any man, so maybe Deshawn or Marquis are preferable. I don't think it would be okay to call it "stupid" for being on the list considering it does fall into standard African-American naming cultural trends.
That is the difference between judging say, a Japanese name, and an African-American name- Japanese names come from a long standing language of a people who built an empire and their culture and language persist today without oppression. The African-American naming culture is unique in that it came from using elements of English names to create new names that were not associated with the whites who oppressed them and owned them for hundreds of years and that are not associated with the dominant white culture that still oppresses.
ETA: If given a list, I think it would be fair to comment that Sir might cause some confusion for the kid because it is a commonly used title for any man, so maybe Deshawn or Marquis are preferable. I don't think it would be okay to call it "stupid" for being on the list considering it does fall into standard African-American naming cultural trends.
This message was edited 7/18/2017, 3:17 PM
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Thank you for explaining the difference between why the judgement of a Japanese name and the judgement of an African-American name are different. I didn't think of it in that sense. It is different because Japanese oppression stems from their culture (like, Americans oppressed the Japanese because they were Japanese), whereas African-American culture stemmed from oppression. I think I may have changed sides on this a bit. Thanks to you and queenv for that.
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No worries :)
And while the Japanese were oppressed around WW2 with the internment camps here and things, they haven't been oppressed in nearly the same way as African-Americans have. African-American people have been oppressed and not treated as fully human or part of society for hundreds of years as slaves, then all the way through Jim Crow, and still are to a large degree now despite Civil Rights. Civil Rights only gave them LEGAL rights and brought some empowerment and ended legal segregation and that only happened in the 1960s- there are POC still alive today that had to drink from a certain fountain, attend a certain school, ride in one part of the bus, and who lived in servitude. Lynchings happened regularly in the South up until the 1950s and 60s.
This isn't an "old" problem. It still happens in more insidious ways. Planned and purposeful segregation still happens that circumvents the laws.
It's something we as white people need to recognize- however hard we work, a black person in the same position needs to work much harder. Most black people begin way way wayyyyy behind the starting block we are on due to centuries of oppression. We need to recognize our privilege and do what we can to remedy it. It doesn't take away from our personal accomplishments as we can't help to whom we were born...but either can they. I believe in equality and that means that I need to recognize that I have been "lucky" to be born white by chance and fight for others who were not.
And while the Japanese were oppressed around WW2 with the internment camps here and things, they haven't been oppressed in nearly the same way as African-Americans have. African-American people have been oppressed and not treated as fully human or part of society for hundreds of years as slaves, then all the way through Jim Crow, and still are to a large degree now despite Civil Rights. Civil Rights only gave them LEGAL rights and brought some empowerment and ended legal segregation and that only happened in the 1960s- there are POC still alive today that had to drink from a certain fountain, attend a certain school, ride in one part of the bus, and who lived in servitude. Lynchings happened regularly in the South up until the 1950s and 60s.
This isn't an "old" problem. It still happens in more insidious ways. Planned and purposeful segregation still happens that circumvents the laws.
It's something we as white people need to recognize- however hard we work, a black person in the same position needs to work much harder. Most black people begin way way wayyyyy behind the starting block we are on due to centuries of oppression. We need to recognize our privilege and do what we can to remedy it. It doesn't take away from our personal accomplishments as we can't help to whom we were born...but either can they. I believe in equality and that means that I need to recognize that I have been "lucky" to be born white by chance and fight for others who were not.
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Wow. This is very sad. I didn't realize how severe the oppression was.
I've known less than 10 African-Americans in my whole life. The majority demographic where I use to live was white. Most POC were Asian. The concept of white privilege is a relatively new concept for me, and I only learned about it because of the internet. I'm grateful I moved to Charlotte, so I can see a different racial dynamic and notice my white privilege more.
Thanks for sharing this information. It was interesting and eye-opening.
I've known less than 10 African-Americans in my whole life. The majority demographic where I use to live was white. Most POC were Asian. The concept of white privilege is a relatively new concept for me, and I only learned about it because of the internet. I'm grateful I moved to Charlotte, so I can see a different racial dynamic and notice my white privilege more.
Thanks for sharing this information. It was interesting and eye-opening.
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Which is what I said in my original response (it would cause confusion). At no point did I "slam" the name or call it stupid etc. :)
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I didn't say you did- it's just a common thing that does happen and I don't think noting that it could cause confusion is really so much an "opinion" as an observation. I was more replying to the direct reply about how it meant you couldn't have an opinion on any name from another culture on a name opinions board. To me, an opinion is a bit more a statement on whether you personally like that name. For example, with the name Jethro, I could state that it does have an association with the Beverley Hillbiliies (observation) but I could also state that I dislike it because it sounds really country and stupid (opinion). For the name Latoya, I could state that it has an association with Latoya Jackson (observation) and then a common white perspective would be to say it sounds 'ghetto' or 'trashy' (opinion).
I'm not saying you did that at all but in response to your comment about having opinions on names, I do think there is a very big difference between me having an opinion on a name historically used within white culture like Jethro and me having an opinion as a white person on a name that has come to be used in African-American culture. I can make an observation but I don't think it's okay for me or anyone outside of the culture to have an opinion on an African-American name. It does not matter whether or not I like the name 'Sir'- I can definitely make the observation that it could be a confusing name to have- but not an opinion whether it is 'good' or 'bad'.
I hope that makes sense :)
ETA: I think there is also baggage that comes with opining on African-American names that is racially based. For example, the whole 'ghetto' or 'trashy' opinion on many of them comes from the association of black people in poorer areas, which in itself is due to institutionalized racism and the fact that the civil rights movement was so recent and that many are still not treated as equal members of society.
I'm not saying you did that at all but in response to your comment about having opinions on names, I do think there is a very big difference between me having an opinion on a name historically used within white culture like Jethro and me having an opinion as a white person on a name that has come to be used in African-American culture. I can make an observation but I don't think it's okay for me or anyone outside of the culture to have an opinion on an African-American name. It does not matter whether or not I like the name 'Sir'- I can definitely make the observation that it could be a confusing name to have- but not an opinion whether it is 'good' or 'bad'.
I hope that makes sense :)
ETA: I think there is also baggage that comes with opining on African-American names that is racially based. For example, the whole 'ghetto' or 'trashy' opinion on many of them comes from the association of black people in poorer areas, which in itself is due to institutionalized racism and the fact that the civil rights movement was so recent and that many are still not treated as equal members of society.
This message was edited 7/18/2017, 4:34 PM
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I appreciate you taking the time to reply.
I still stand by anyone having (and giving if they choose) an opinion on any name on a name opinions board, that's what it is for - to share opinions, impressions, observations, experiences etc. etc. on names.
I try (probably don't always succeed) to give constructive/useful opinions, not simply deride a name, and will continue to do so.
I still stand by anyone having (and giving if they choose) an opinion on any name on a name opinions board, that's what it is for - to share opinions, impressions, observations, experiences etc. etc. on names.
I try (probably don't always succeed) to give constructive/useful opinions, not simply deride a name, and will continue to do so.
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Do you think it's okay to have an opinion of "I like/do not like this name" without saying it is good or bad, or do you think opinions of any sort on African-American names should only be held by African-Americans?
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about cultural appropriation, and this ties into it. It's given me many things to ruminate on.
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about cultural appropriation, and this ties into it. It's given me many things to ruminate on.
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I think we all have initial responses of "I like" or "I don't like," it's just important to analyze WHY you have that reaction. And usually, when you have a reaction of "I don't like that" to a 'foreign' name it's because some part of it is not native to you- so you haven't been exposed to it enough to have a truly objection opinion.
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That makes sense. I think maybe these gut reactions can also be based in racism. Not just "I dislike the sound" but "I dislike it because it is trashy". It can lead down a dangerous path, like we just discussed.
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We'll have to agree to disagree
:)
:)
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Haha, typing on the phone sucks.
I pretty much agree with you. But I don't think queenv was trying to be harsh or say that you don't deserve to have an opinion. I think I get where both of you are coming from, so, yeah...
I pretty much agree with you. But I don't think queenv was trying to be harsh or say that you don't deserve to have an opinion. I think I get where both of you are coming from, so, yeah...
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Well, now you might want to re-think this, lol.
This is not directed at you, I'm just putting it here. I can't say how disheartening it is to see people flaunt their white privilege and their, to use Petra's apt phrase, white fragility over and over and over again and then continually refuse to see the error of their ways.
This is not directed at you, I'm just putting it here. I can't say how disheartening it is to see people flaunt their white privilege and their, to use Petra's apt phrase, white fragility over and over and over again and then continually refuse to see the error of their ways.
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Haha, yeah, I'm definitely thinking about it. I think what I'm stuck on is mainly what I get stuck on when it comes to a lot of things I disagree with socially and politically - the question of "if we deem this to be unacceptable, where do we draw the line?"
Question: Do you feel differently about my having an opinion on this to know that I am biracial (I am not African-American, though)? Is that different to you than me being purely white, or do you think that only people from a certain culture should form opinions about names from that culture?
ETA: One more question. Would you feel different if it was a Japanese celebrity giving her child a Japanese name, knowing that they faced oppression in America as well?
I'm not trying to be rude or harsh here. I just honestly want to know, because I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong here. It's totally possible that I'm being a jackass. So I want to have this conversation purely because I'm opening my mind to this.
Question: Do you feel differently about my having an opinion on this to know that I am biracial (I am not African-American, though)? Is that different to you than me being purely white, or do you think that only people from a certain culture should form opinions about names from that culture?
ETA: One more question. Would you feel different if it was a Japanese celebrity giving her child a Japanese name, knowing that they faced oppression in America as well?
I'm not trying to be rude or harsh here. I just honestly want to know, because I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong here. It's totally possible that I'm being a jackass. So I want to have this conversation purely because I'm opening my mind to this.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 8:51 PM
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I did already know that you are biracial, but not part African-American. I think you said your father is Indian?
The only way that I would feel differently about it is if you were African-American or biracial, being half African-American. I think that they, and only they, can judge the names of their culture. I do not feel this way about other cultures. The African-American culture is singular. It has a singular origin and a singular history. You can't draw any conclusions on how I feel about other cultures from the way that I feel about African-American culture. Of course, all cultures have their own origins and history, but what I mean is that there are things about African-American culture origin and history that set it apart from the rest.
ETA: Not exactly. The Japanese did not, and no other group has, suffered the same level of oppression and discrimination in the US that blacks have. OTOH, it would be annoying to see people saying, "That name is ugly" about a Japanese name. I don't think one can really appreciate Japanese names without being part of or very familiar with their culture.
The only way that I would feel differently about it is if you were African-American or biracial, being half African-American. I think that they, and only they, can judge the names of their culture. I do not feel this way about other cultures. The African-American culture is singular. It has a singular origin and a singular history. You can't draw any conclusions on how I feel about other cultures from the way that I feel about African-American culture. Of course, all cultures have their own origins and history, but what I mean is that there are things about African-American culture origin and history that set it apart from the rest.
ETA: Not exactly. The Japanese did not, and no other group has, suffered the same level of oppression and discrimination in the US that blacks have. OTOH, it would be annoying to see people saying, "That name is ugly" about a Japanese name. I don't think one can really appreciate Japanese names without being part of or very familiar with their culture.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 9:00 PM
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Yes, my father is from India! :)
I can understand that. I'm assuming the reason you hold different opinions about opinions on African-American culture versus any other is because they faced the worst oppression. I have to ruminate on this some more, so I might edit this tomorrow after I've fully processed it. The one thing I'm not positive about is black people facing the worst oppression, though you're probably right; I just don't know enough about racial oppression to be sure. I'll do some more research.
I have to admit, I am now wishing I was closer with my half-black cousins so I could ask them how they feel about this. Until I moved to Charlotte, I'd met maybe 10 African-Americans in my life, so I've never actually really seen racism and how it affects people. I've heard my father's stories, being Indian, and that's it. Where I used to live, people were very quietly racist (so much so that I didn't realize they were at all until recently) and not open about it.
Okay, it's taken me so long to type this that I've thought about it more. When I think of "Sir" as being a black culture name, I feel very differently about it. Because I was thinking about how much I hate it when people laugh at my father's name, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I would be horrified if I saw someone mocking a Mexican or Russian name, so why is this different? I think it's an example of severe internalized racism, especially for someone who has been passionately against racism for as long as she can remember. I still think it's fine to have a gut reaction of "I like/do not like this name" but not fine to think "this is a bad name/foolish name/etc", purely because one is based on simple, reactive, aesthetic style and another is based on judgement. Good job, you got me thinking and got me to change my opinions. This has been a really interesting discussion so far.
I can understand that. I'm assuming the reason you hold different opinions about opinions on African-American culture versus any other is because they faced the worst oppression. I have to ruminate on this some more, so I might edit this tomorrow after I've fully processed it. The one thing I'm not positive about is black people facing the worst oppression, though you're probably right; I just don't know enough about racial oppression to be sure. I'll do some more research.
I have to admit, I am now wishing I was closer with my half-black cousins so I could ask them how they feel about this. Until I moved to Charlotte, I'd met maybe 10 African-Americans in my life, so I've never actually really seen racism and how it affects people. I've heard my father's stories, being Indian, and that's it. Where I used to live, people were very quietly racist (so much so that I didn't realize they were at all until recently) and not open about it.
Okay, it's taken me so long to type this that I've thought about it more. When I think of "Sir" as being a black culture name, I feel very differently about it. Because I was thinking about how much I hate it when people laugh at my father's name, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I would be horrified if I saw someone mocking a Mexican or Russian name, so why is this different? I think it's an example of severe internalized racism, especially for someone who has been passionately against racism for as long as she can remember. I still think it's fine to have a gut reaction of "I like/do not like this name" but not fine to think "this is a bad name/foolish name/etc", purely because one is based on simple, reactive, aesthetic style and another is based on judgement. Good job, you got me thinking and got me to change my opinions. This has been a really interesting discussion so far.
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Sorry if I was one of those people who made you feel like you can't start these discussions. I was trying to start a debate, in a sense, but I realize that this may not have been the place for it. I apologize. I personally like to hear what you have to say on this topic, even if (especially if) I disagree with it. It sucks to feel like you can't talk about a topic you're passionate about because you're afraid of the backlash. So, bottom line: I like to hear your thoughts on this, but I understand if you aren't comfortable sharing them.
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No, it wasn't you. Don't worry about that. No need to apologize.
It goes back quite a long way. I think the first time we talked about this subject was back in 2013. And it got heated, but that was really my fault, because my initial response was rather aggressive, and I didn't explain myself clearly right away.
To me, this isn't something that should even be open to debate, in the same way that "Is it okay to refuse service to blacks in a restaurant?" shouldn't even be open to debate. The first time, I fully expected everyone to see my point and for everyone to agree with me. I thought that they were all being unknowingly insensitive and that they would be happy and grateful that their insensitivity was being pointed out to them. I was surprised when not everyone responded that way. And the time will never come when everyone does, and since I don't think this is something that should be open to debate, of course, it just leads to frustration.
At this time, it is mind-boggling to me that an African-American said as much as I've been saying for several years, and people are still not accepting it.
It goes back quite a long way. I think the first time we talked about this subject was back in 2013. And it got heated, but that was really my fault, because my initial response was rather aggressive, and I didn't explain myself clearly right away.
To me, this isn't something that should even be open to debate, in the same way that "Is it okay to refuse service to blacks in a restaurant?" shouldn't even be open to debate. The first time, I fully expected everyone to see my point and for everyone to agree with me. I thought that they were all being unknowingly insensitive and that they would be happy and grateful that their insensitivity was being pointed out to them. I was surprised when not everyone responded that way. And the time will never come when everyone does, and since I don't think this is something that should be open to debate, of course, it just leads to frustration.
At this time, it is mind-boggling to me that an African-American said as much as I've been saying for several years, and people are still not accepting it.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 4:46 PM
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Isn't that kind of the basis of white privileged though? To not even realize that you have it. As a staunch supporter of its existence I've found that often time people don't know any better because it is SO ingrained. They can't admit to it because they literally can't see it. That all comes down to ignorance and unwillingness.
I also feel like maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly here? Like, I know I have a white privilege that should exclude me from having opinions about black names, but I also feel like this particular name is an exception. We aren't judging the use of Saint, or God'iss here, we are looking at a name that is used MORE frequently as a word than a title. Because outside of African-American naming culture there is still an "American" naming culture, abiding by what words are acceptable as names, that says that Sir is bad.
I also feel like maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly here? Like, I know I have a white privilege that should exclude me from having opinions about black names, but I also feel like this particular name is an exception. We aren't judging the use of Saint, or God'iss here, we are looking at a name that is used MORE frequently as a word than a title. Because outside of African-American naming culture there is still an "American" naming culture, abiding by what words are acceptable as names, that says that Sir is bad.
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Yes, white privilege is something that most whites don't know that they have.
I see your point about Sir. It wouldn't have been so bad if the comments were all along the lines of "This is going to present a practical problem in the context of the dominant culture", rather than "idiotic", "dumb", "risible" etc.
I see your point about Sir. It wouldn't have been so bad if the comments were all along the lines of "This is going to present a practical problem in the context of the dominant culture", rather than "idiotic", "dumb", "risible" etc.
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To be fair I think the intent of "dumb" and "idiotic" was to say that Sir was a poor choice. Maybe not, but that's how I saw it. It's "dumb" to use such a common word BECAUSE of the confusion it will likely cause. I know this is tricky, because people would likely still use words like dumb and idiotic in response to a name like Messiah also.
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I think I am beginning to understand where you're coming from. So it is wrong to ridicule a name from black culture on a black child, because of the context in which it was created as a name. Is this what you mean? There's a whole lot more going round in my brain about this, I have been thinking a lot about this conversation.
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Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
Imagine if you were part of a larger culture that had enslaved, then had disenfranchised, your ancestors. Imagine if your ancestors had had to always show deference to the dominant culture. Imagine if the dominant culture had prevented your ancestors from being anything but the poorest sharecroppers or domestic servants. Imagine if a member of the dominant culture could have killed any of your ancestors with impunity, but if one of your ancestors had killed a member of the dominant culture they would have been lynched without trial. Imagine if one of your male ancestors had done as much as whistled at a woman of the dominant culture, he would have been tortured and then killed. Imagine if the dominant culture found your ancestors so repulsive that they refused to share restrooms, drinking fountains, restaurants, theaters, and hotels with them, and made that into law.
Imagine that the names your ancestors had used were a part of this culture, the one that did this to your ancestors. If your ancestors had not been captured in Africa and brought to America as slaves, you would not today be naming your kids William, George, Mary, Sarah. So as a symbol of breaking free of the oppression, as a symbol of not tolerating it any longer, you create a separate naming culture.
And then imagine members of the dominant culture laughing at your names. Imagine that they say the names are ridiculous. Imagine that the first words that come out of their mouths when they see one are "ghetto" and "trashy". (Not saying anyone in this thread used those words, but it's very common.) Just imagine them judging them at all, even if occasionally the judgment is a positive one.
Imagine if you were part of a larger culture that had enslaved, then had disenfranchised, your ancestors. Imagine if your ancestors had had to always show deference to the dominant culture. Imagine if the dominant culture had prevented your ancestors from being anything but the poorest sharecroppers or domestic servants. Imagine if a member of the dominant culture could have killed any of your ancestors with impunity, but if one of your ancestors had killed a member of the dominant culture they would have been lynched without trial. Imagine if one of your male ancestors had done as much as whistled at a woman of the dominant culture, he would have been tortured and then killed. Imagine if the dominant culture found your ancestors so repulsive that they refused to share restrooms, drinking fountains, restaurants, theaters, and hotels with them, and made that into law.
Imagine that the names your ancestors had used were a part of this culture, the one that did this to your ancestors. If your ancestors had not been captured in Africa and brought to America as slaves, you would not today be naming your kids William, George, Mary, Sarah. So as a symbol of breaking free of the oppression, as a symbol of not tolerating it any longer, you create a separate naming culture.
And then imagine members of the dominant culture laughing at your names. Imagine that they say the names are ridiculous. Imagine that the first words that come out of their mouths when they see one are "ghetto" and "trashy". (Not saying anyone in this thread used those words, but it's very common.) Just imagine them judging them at all, even if occasionally the judgment is a positive one.
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Yeah. I get it now.
Thank you for having the patience to explain it like this. I apologise for my derisive comments.
Thank you for having the patience to explain it like this. I apologise for my derisive comments.
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Guys... :)
I love how this resolved. Props to you Katie and Ismene and to you queenv for all discussing this in a conversation that while it became kind of heated at times, no one resorted to name calling or anything and you guys all really listened to each other.
This isn't meant to be patronizing at all, I promise. It's really hard to have conversations about difficult topics with people we don't know in real life over text on a forum. People don't always express themselves properly in writing and we lose the tone and other nuances. We have had these debates turn SO ugly in the past and it just makes me really happy that some members here could have a really difficult discussion, coming at it from some different view points, and reach a conclusion from listening to one another.
Like really happy :)
I love how this resolved. Props to you Katie and Ismene and to you queenv for all discussing this in a conversation that while it became kind of heated at times, no one resorted to name calling or anything and you guys all really listened to each other.
This isn't meant to be patronizing at all, I promise. It's really hard to have conversations about difficult topics with people we don't know in real life over text on a forum. People don't always express themselves properly in writing and we lose the tone and other nuances. We have had these debates turn SO ugly in the past and it just makes me really happy that some members here could have a really difficult discussion, coming at it from some different view points, and reach a conclusion from listening to one another.
Like really happy :)
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I completely agree. That's what I love about this board. That, though conversations can get harsh sometimes, for the most part, we can have respectful, intellectual conversations. I was realizing last night how much this board has changed me and taught me about social behaviors, for lack of a better term, things that I never really would have learned just by interacting with people in every day life. So yeah, props to you all.
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Yes, I second the thanks to everyone who was open-minded and listened to me. I feel ashamed now for ranting about "This never goes anywhere!" This time, it did. Thanks.
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Don't feel ashamed! I'm so grateful you continued to try and explained in a way I understood :)
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It did go somewhere this time! :) Thanks to you for explaining it to us in a calm, rational manner. This has restored my faith in humanity a little bit.
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I PM'd you
:)
:)
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I feel kind of guilty that I've got a comment in there.
But that was ten years ago. And at that point in time, from an oblivious foreign perspective, it just looked like another silly made-up name. You live and learn: thanks for the education
But that was ten years ago. And at that point in time, from an oblivious foreign perspective, it just looked like another silly made-up name. You live and learn: thanks for the education
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Wow
I have never seen a whiter perspective, demand to abide by a white narrative of what is socially acceptable and privilege to obviously think it's ok to chastise someone's opinion of their own race.
Just WOW.
I have never seen a whiter perspective, demand to abide by a white narrative of what is socially acceptable and privilege to obviously think it's ok to chastise someone's opinion of their own race.
Just WOW.
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I hope you don't think I meant to imply that it's not "socially acceptable" for POC to point out racism or react to it, because that wasn't at all what I meant.
I didn't mean to contradict what you said about African American name culture. I know you said that the naming culture is a reaction to racism. My goal here is to find out how people who frequently post here might effectively persuade one another that certain criticisms of African American names are racist. Yes, it is a privilegey goal. But I thought it's pragmatic.
I meant to ask whether you think it's *necessary* to present the naming culture as reaction to racism *in this context* ... or whether it'd be legit to lowball your estimate of those who criticize the names, and just tell 'em "it's culture so stuff your insults." Because I believe that would become less contentious, and more likely to get people to speak respectfully out of a feeling of respect, even when they fail to understand. I guess I often fail to understand, myself.
If you say it's important to you to certify the reaction aspect even if it doesn't get as much behavior result when you do that - OK, fine. That was what I was trying to ask you. You didn't respond to me, queenv did so I addressed her ... I can appreciate why you are irritated by how I sounded in my reply, and I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to contradict what you said about African American name culture. I know you said that the naming culture is a reaction to racism. My goal here is to find out how people who frequently post here might effectively persuade one another that certain criticisms of African American names are racist. Yes, it is a privilegey goal. But I thought it's pragmatic.
I meant to ask whether you think it's *necessary* to present the naming culture as reaction to racism *in this context* ... or whether it'd be legit to lowball your estimate of those who criticize the names, and just tell 'em "it's culture so stuff your insults." Because I believe that would become less contentious, and more likely to get people to speak respectfully out of a feeling of respect, even when they fail to understand. I guess I often fail to understand, myself.
If you say it's important to you to certify the reaction aspect even if it doesn't get as much behavior result when you do that - OK, fine. That was what I was trying to ask you. You didn't respond to me, queenv did so I addressed her ... I can appreciate why you are irritated by how I sounded in my reply, and I'm sorry.
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Should be under Mirfak's comment. Big apology I was just in shock.
NY
NY
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I don't understand why someone who believes a traditionally white name is a slave name but a traditionally Arabic name is not. Arabs had slaves long before white persons.
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Do you... actually not understand?
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Yeah, ok. That is a good point.
I guess I just think that framing it as reaction in a conversation like this could be unhelpful to your purpose. Since the lowest-hanging fruit is to get people to go, "Hmm, you're right, I don't laugh at Japanese names. So why would I laugh at these, because it's not really different." It's a much taller order to get them to go "hmm, you're right, my own attitudes really are part of systematic racist oppression!" I mean, not that you shouldn't want to demand that they realize it, but your chances are less. A potential whiteracist response to "the naming culture is a reaction to oppression by white culture" might be "yeah, just as I thought, they use the names because they don't want good jobs or education!" My inclination is to head that one off at the pass, since from a practical standpoint the naming culture should be respected regardless of what its origins are.
I guess I just think that framing it as reaction in a conversation like this could be unhelpful to your purpose. Since the lowest-hanging fruit is to get people to go, "Hmm, you're right, I don't laugh at Japanese names. So why would I laugh at these, because it's not really different." It's a much taller order to get them to go "hmm, you're right, my own attitudes really are part of systematic racist oppression!" I mean, not that you shouldn't want to demand that they realize it, but your chances are less. A potential whiteracist response to "the naming culture is a reaction to oppression by white culture" might be "yeah, just as I thought, they use the names because they don't want good jobs or education!" My inclination is to head that one off at the pass, since from a practical standpoint the naming culture should be respected regardless of what its origins are.
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