New Post
Search
Help[Opinions] Re: Native American names (U.S. only)
in reply to a message by Theodora'sMommy
I agree that it's pretty tone-deaf for a non-Native-American person to use a Native American name. But please, don't use misogyny to attack cultural appropriation:
"I’m talking to you, white girl with a dreamcatcher hanging from your rearview mirror."
Don't try to set up some enmity between good-guy Native Americans and bad-guy white women.
...And no, I'm not a white girl with a dreamcatcher. However, at least where I live, dreamcatchers are one of the things that tribal businesses sell to non-tribe-members. If the tribes themselves don't have a problem with people of other races buying dreamcatchers, why should you?
Also: "people from other races (let’s face it, white people)"... There are black people who use Native American names, too, for probably the same reason as white people do: a combination of admiration and cluelessness. I'll bet some of them also have a Native American ancestor a few generations back and are attempting to pay tribute to that fact.
I'm sorry; I agree with your basic idea, but I think that combatting past or present wrongs by attacking a particular race or sex is the worst possible approach people can take, and is probably helping fuel the horrific neo-Nazi resurgence.
"I’m talking to you, white girl with a dreamcatcher hanging from your rearview mirror."
Don't try to set up some enmity between good-guy Native Americans and bad-guy white women.
...And no, I'm not a white girl with a dreamcatcher. However, at least where I live, dreamcatchers are one of the things that tribal businesses sell to non-tribe-members. If the tribes themselves don't have a problem with people of other races buying dreamcatchers, why should you?
Also: "people from other races (let’s face it, white people)"... There are black people who use Native American names, too, for probably the same reason as white people do: a combination of admiration and cluelessness. I'll bet some of them also have a Native American ancestor a few generations back and are attempting to pay tribute to that fact.
I'm sorry; I agree with your basic idea, but I think that combatting past or present wrongs by attacking a particular race or sex is the worst possible approach people can take, and is probably helping fuel the horrific neo-Nazi resurgence.
This message was edited 10/3/2019, 3:06 AM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
1
Replies
I don't see any misogyny here ...
Poster called out "the white girl" with the dreamcatcher. Presumably it's an actual "white girl" she's seen, probably several of them. I have rarely seen a white guy with a dreamcatcher hung to his mirror, though I'm sure there's some who do. Fair or not, equal or not, most things are done/worn/enjoyed more often by one sex than the other. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just life; nothing can always be exactly equally divided, and why should it?
Poster called out "the white girl" with the dreamcatcher. Presumably it's an actual "white girl" she's seen, probably several of them. I have rarely seen a white guy with a dreamcatcher hung to his mirror, though I'm sure there's some who do. Fair or not, equal or not, most things are done/worn/enjoyed more often by one sex than the other. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just life; nothing can always be exactly equally divided, and why should it?
1
As I mentioned in my response to Theodora'sMommy, I think there's a soft misogyny at play in that comment, similar to comments about "Karen" and "Becky" that portray white WOMEN as the primary source of racism and entitlement. And if we're talking about historical injustices, I doubt many women in past centuries were personally doing any active mass killing of Native Americans. If we're going to hold any living people responsible for the Trail of Tears, teenaged white girls with dreamcatchers wouldn't be my first pick. They're just an easy target for derision.
1
baloney ...
You're not just comparing apples and oranges by throwing in the Trail of Tears in a discussion about dreamcatchers (which began as a discussion of popular names for American Indians), you're comparing apples and hair dryers.
And if you actually believe that just because white women didn't do actual mass killings that they are somehow incapable of perpetrating injustice or appropriating things, you don't know women very well. Even if you are one.
It's a mistake to think that women aren't as good as men. But it's a much bigger mistake to think they're any better.
You're not just comparing apples and oranges by throwing in the Trail of Tears in a discussion about dreamcatchers (which began as a discussion of popular names for American Indians), you're comparing apples and hair dryers.
And if you actually believe that just because white women didn't do actual mass killings that they are somehow incapable of perpetrating injustice or appropriating things, you don't know women very well. Even if you are one.
It's a mistake to think that women aren't as good as men. But it's a much bigger mistake to think they're any better.
1
Wait a minute there. The whole reason people are being bothered by white people having dreamcatchers or using Native American names is the history of atrocities committed by white people against Native Americans. If it weren't for things like the Trail of Tears we wouldn't be talking about dreamcatchers. That was the whole point of Theodora'sMommy's original reply. I'm not just randomly bringing up the Trail of Tears like someone would bring Hitler in.
>if you actually believe that just because white women didn't do actual mass killings that they are somehow incapable of perpetrating injustice or appropriating things
Come ON. I never said that. And I never said, nor do I believe, that women are better than men. What I'm saying is that if you're picking on girls with dreamcatchers for crimes perpetrated by people in the past who are likely unrelated to them, and (in the case of mass killings) were not even of the same sex, simply because the girls are of the same race as these past people... You're focusing on the wrong targets. Out of all the people and institutions you could criticize for injustice against Native Americans, white girls with dreamcatchers are the real offenders here?
I do think there's a hint of misogyny in talking about historical persecution of Native Americans, and current cultural appropriation, and when you call out any particular group it's by mocking white girls, like they personally have done anything worse than thinking a dreamcatcher sounds nice and not understanding how this would come across.
>if you actually believe that just because white women didn't do actual mass killings that they are somehow incapable of perpetrating injustice or appropriating things
Come ON. I never said that. And I never said, nor do I believe, that women are better than men. What I'm saying is that if you're picking on girls with dreamcatchers for crimes perpetrated by people in the past who are likely unrelated to them, and (in the case of mass killings) were not even of the same sex, simply because the girls are of the same race as these past people... You're focusing on the wrong targets. Out of all the people and institutions you could criticize for injustice against Native Americans, white girls with dreamcatchers are the real offenders here?
I do think there's a hint of misogyny in talking about historical persecution of Native Americans, and current cultural appropriation, and when you call out any particular group it's by mocking white girls, like they personally have done anything worse than thinking a dreamcatcher sounds nice and not understanding how this would come across.
1
Well put.
1
But people of non-white races haven't been as involved in the oppression, and so it doesn't carry the same weight when they use the names. People also use "admiration" and a tenuous, vague "ancestor a few generations back" explanation to don headdresses and war paint and buckskins when they don't even remotely identify as Indigenous. If we all cringe at that, how is it somehow okay to take a different symbol of that race such as a name and make their child wear it for life?
There are very few things that bother my husband about races misappropriating his culture, actually. The rest of his family is much more likely to be hurt by the actions of others. But even he can go on a pretty fair rant about dreamcatchers. Most of the ones people have are manufactured in other countries like China and purchased from non-Native-run novelty shops, often with semi-precious, badly researched explanations about what they're supposed to do and represent. Even the ones sold from reservations can be inauthentic. It's difficult for reservations to have business infrastructure. Governments typically staked out the land because nobody else wanted it... awful soil for growing things, remote or inaccessible location, rocky or swampy ground, etc. And at least where I'm from, owning property on a reservation is not like owning property off of it. So no big business is going to come to a reserve if they can't have true ownership and can’t be sure if the government is going to snatch the land out from under them at any time. And it's hard for small, family-owned businesses to build up around nothing, especially when they have the same land ownership problems. There are only a few businesses that ever seem to do well: casinos, tobacco shops and places that sell kitchy, touristy crap. So even if your soul is dying by selling those things, you still need to feed your family, so you're going to do it. You usually can find beautiful examples of local Native artistry at those same shops and it's wonderful to support those endeavours. But the big sellers are the iconic but less authentic cheap crap.
Are you seriously suggesting that because my one common example happens to be female that I'm feeding the misogynists and neo-nazis and buying into their propaganda? If you truly believe that and aren't just using it as a gateway to start a different set of arguments, then no amount of rational explanation or critical thinking on my part is going to allow us to agree.
There are very few things that bother my husband about races misappropriating his culture, actually. The rest of his family is much more likely to be hurt by the actions of others. But even he can go on a pretty fair rant about dreamcatchers. Most of the ones people have are manufactured in other countries like China and purchased from non-Native-run novelty shops, often with semi-precious, badly researched explanations about what they're supposed to do and represent. Even the ones sold from reservations can be inauthentic. It's difficult for reservations to have business infrastructure. Governments typically staked out the land because nobody else wanted it... awful soil for growing things, remote or inaccessible location, rocky or swampy ground, etc. And at least where I'm from, owning property on a reservation is not like owning property off of it. So no big business is going to come to a reserve if they can't have true ownership and can’t be sure if the government is going to snatch the land out from under them at any time. And it's hard for small, family-owned businesses to build up around nothing, especially when they have the same land ownership problems. There are only a few businesses that ever seem to do well: casinos, tobacco shops and places that sell kitchy, touristy crap. So even if your soul is dying by selling those things, you still need to feed your family, so you're going to do it. You usually can find beautiful examples of local Native artistry at those same shops and it's wonderful to support those endeavours. But the big sellers are the iconic but less authentic cheap crap.
Are you seriously suggesting that because my one common example happens to be female that I'm feeding the misogynists and neo-nazis and buying into their propaganda? If you truly believe that and aren't just using it as a gateway to start a different set of arguments, then no amount of rational explanation or critical thinking on my part is going to allow us to agree.
This message was edited 10/3/2019, 5:45 AM
1
>Are you seriously suggesting that because my one common example happens to be female that I'm feeding the misogynists and neo-nazis and buying into their propaganda?
I certainly don't think you're buying into neo-Nazi propaganda! What I'm trying to say is that if, when addressing historic injustices (or, to be blunt, atrocities), you do it by being hostile to people of a particular race NOW, you're reinforcing racial division. Even if you are being a "good guy" and taking the side of a historically oppressed group, you're still portraying the situation as "white people today vs. Native Americans today." And I do think that mentality - while certainly not responsible for the neo-Nazi resurgence - reinforces the one-race-against-another worldview.
Acknowledged, it was only the one example that was female. To me it seemed very reminiscent of references to "Karen" or "Becky" that imply that white WOMEN are the primary perpetrators of racism and general entitlement.
>People also use "admiration" and a tenuous, vague "ancestor a few generations back" explanation to don headdresses and war paint and buckskins when they don't even remotely identify as Indigenous.
I've never seen that but I'll take your word for it. What if they do consider themselves to be partly Native American because of a definite ancestor a few generations back, though? I also think it's unkind to talk as though people doing this are just coming up with specious excuses to do something insulting, rather than acting out of naivete.
Getting back to names, though - I'd think a black person using a Native American name with some fake meaning from the internet would be just as bad as a white person doing it. I know I'd find "Tiger Lily" cringeworthy either way, for example.
>If you truly believe that and aren't just using it as a gateway to start a different set of arguments, then no amount of rational explanation or critical thinking on my part is going to allow us to agree.
So I'm either being disingenuous or I'm a cretin who is impervious to the power of your rationality and critical thinking? I hate it when people make jerk comments like that.
I certainly don't think you're buying into neo-Nazi propaganda! What I'm trying to say is that if, when addressing historic injustices (or, to be blunt, atrocities), you do it by being hostile to people of a particular race NOW, you're reinforcing racial division. Even if you are being a "good guy" and taking the side of a historically oppressed group, you're still portraying the situation as "white people today vs. Native Americans today." And I do think that mentality - while certainly not responsible for the neo-Nazi resurgence - reinforces the one-race-against-another worldview.
Acknowledged, it was only the one example that was female. To me it seemed very reminiscent of references to "Karen" or "Becky" that imply that white WOMEN are the primary perpetrators of racism and general entitlement.
>People also use "admiration" and a tenuous, vague "ancestor a few generations back" explanation to don headdresses and war paint and buckskins when they don't even remotely identify as Indigenous.
I've never seen that but I'll take your word for it. What if they do consider themselves to be partly Native American because of a definite ancestor a few generations back, though? I also think it's unkind to talk as though people doing this are just coming up with specious excuses to do something insulting, rather than acting out of naivete.
Getting back to names, though - I'd think a black person using a Native American name with some fake meaning from the internet would be just as bad as a white person doing it. I know I'd find "Tiger Lily" cringeworthy either way, for example.
>If you truly believe that and aren't just using it as a gateway to start a different set of arguments, then no amount of rational explanation or critical thinking on my part is going to allow us to agree.
So I'm either being disingenuous or I'm a cretin who is impervious to the power of your rationality and critical thinking? I hate it when people make jerk comments like that.
1