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Help[Facts] Re: Pronunciation of Charikleia?
in reply to a message by mirfak
If by "Greek" you exclusively mean "modern Greek", then I can tell you the following:
Charikleia and Chariklia are both written as Χαρίκλεια, which means that both will be pronounced the same in modern Greek. According to Wiktionary, the modern Greek IPA pronunciation of Χαρίκλεια is /xaˈɾi.kli.a/ :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Χαρίκλεια#Pronunciation (in English)
I put that pronunciation into the Submit A Name form of BtN (using a test name) and the preview automatically simplified it to kha-REE-klee-a.
For pronunciation differences between ancient Greek and modern Greek, please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Sound_values (in English; be sure to also scroll down to the two separate tables for consonant letters and vowel letters, of which the latter will be the most relevant for Χαρίκλεια)
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Replies
Ancient Greek:
/çaˈɾiː.klei.a/ (~ kha-REE-klay-a)
/çaˈɾiː.klei.a/ (~ kha-REE-klay-a)
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No, that is not quite right. BtN is even unable to automatically simplify the IPA pronunciation that you provided! Did you just piece it together on your own?
Anyway, the Wikipedia article that I linked to in my previous post clearly states that the IPA pronunciation for the Greek letter chi is [kʰ] in ancient Greek, and [x] as well as [ç] in modern Greek. As such, the first letter of the IPA pronunciation that you provided is already wrong.
Furthermore, the article states that the IPA pronunciation of the vowel combination ει is eː in ancient Greek and i in modern Greek. So that part of your IPA pronunciation is wrong as well.
The ancient Greek IPA pronunciation for Χαρίκλεια should be something like /kʰaˈɾi.kleː.a/ , which BtN automatically simplifies to ka-REE-kleh-a.
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I learned ancient greek at University. This is how we've been taught.
For Chi we learned, that it could be pronounced both /kʰ/ and /ç/. Tough I never met any professor during those 7 years, who pronounced /kʰ/.
For ει we've been explicitly taught, that it's /ei/. This was pointed out quite clearly 'cause in my language you'd usually pronounce "ei" as /aɪ̯/. Never heard any professor pronouncing it differently.
I just checked my books on ancient greek and all of them confirm this.
So either there is a difference in the pronounciation of ancient greek in the different modern languges, or Wikipedia is wrong.
For Chi we learned, that it could be pronounced both /kʰ/ and /ç/. Tough I never met any professor during those 7 years, who pronounced /kʰ/.
For ει we've been explicitly taught, that it's /ei/. This was pointed out quite clearly 'cause in my language you'd usually pronounce "ei" as /aɪ̯/. Never heard any professor pronouncing it differently.
I just checked my books on ancient greek and all of them confirm this.
So either there is a difference in the pronounciation of ancient greek in the different modern languges, or Wikipedia is wrong.
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Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind the ancient Greek IPA pronunciation that you provided! All those details make your approach much more understandable and legitimate, whereas the previous post seemed rather doubtful, what with it being so brief and nothing matching up with both Behind the Name (BtN) and Wikipedia. It really seemed like the IPA pronunciation was basically just pieced together on the spot, I'm sorry to say. But now we know that it actually comes from a solid background, i.e. your university education in ancient Greek!
I am not inclined to think that Wikipedia is wrong, as everything is neatly cited/referenced. The problem most likely lies in the education of ancient Greek in Germany and other European countries, as the pronunciation taught is "heavily skewed towards the phonological system of German or the other host language":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching#Germany (in English)
In other words: yes, there indeed are differences in the pronunciation of ancient Greek among the different modern languages! I guess that might at least partially explain why your IPA pronunciation was essentially not accepted by BtN: it is too influenced by German, whilst BtN probably exclusively uses a system of more English-influenced IPA pronunciations for ancient Greek. That would certainly make sense, what with BtN being an English website that is first and foremost geared towards native speakers of English.
I am not inclined to think that Wikipedia is wrong, as everything is neatly cited/referenced. The problem most likely lies in the education of ancient Greek in Germany and other European countries, as the pronunciation taught is "heavily skewed towards the phonological system of German or the other host language":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching#Germany (in English)
In other words: yes, there indeed are differences in the pronunciation of ancient Greek among the different modern languages! I guess that might at least partially explain why your IPA pronunciation was essentially not accepted by BtN: it is too influenced by German, whilst BtN probably exclusively uses a system of more English-influenced IPA pronunciations for ancient Greek. That would certainly make sense, what with BtN being an English website that is first and foremost geared towards native speakers of English.
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I also figured, it'd rather be the difference in languages. Though we've been taught a bit differently from this article:
ζ as /ds/, ευ as /eu/, ηυ as /ɛu/
And we've been taught to distinguish between ε and η, and ο and ω
Love, that we can talk about this without fighting!
ζ as /ds/, ευ as /eu/, ηυ as /ɛu/
And we've been taught to distinguish between ε and η, and ο and ω
Love, that we can talk about this without fighting!
1
I believe the reason the IPA fails to be accepted by BTN is that there is a hidden character in it (character #8203, a zero-width space). Sometimes these invisibles get unintentionally included when we copy and paste.
Here is the bad IPA: /çaˈɾiː.klei.a/
Here is the good IPA: /çaˈɾiː.klei.a/
They look exactly the same but one is accepted without an error and one is not!
Here is the bad IPA: /çaˈɾiː.klei.a/
Here is the good IPA: /çaˈɾiː.klei.a/
They look exactly the same but one is accepted without an error and one is not!
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