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Help[Facts] Germanic "berts"
Why are there so many Germanic names that contain the string "bert"? This website says that this means "bright". Is that bright, like a light might be bright or can it mean bright as in smart or intelligent? Or could it mean either one, depending on the instance? My last name is Bertram and there is a fair amount of discussion within my family about what exactly that means. This website says this name means "bright raven". Since ravens are black, or at least the ones I'm familiar with are black, can a black bird be bright, as in color or appearance? The doubt is whether bert means bright and also whether ram means raven. So you see there is plenty of doubt!!! lol I'm asking these questions primarily to satisfy a doubting, and sometimes "pestiferous" relative. But I too have the same questions. I'm also trying to reconcile the name elements "bert" and "ram" as used in Albert, Camembert, Wolfram and Ingram. And how certain is this website that its information really accurate? I have this question myself, but it's more to silence my doubting relative! And the curiosity of the rest of us. :) ty!!
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Replies
Elbowin's "freely combining" is important to remember - the themes can stand on their own and even be contradictory. Words meaning "bright, shining" are common name elements from Gaelic to Kuchean and everywhere in between (even monothematic Italic languages). The references are to the bright sky>>divinity, and glory/fame (typically achieved by feats of valor). The raven is a North Western name element, common to Celtic and Germanic. The Celtic references are to the raven god of war, the Germanic are more totemic. It's still associated with war, but also intelligence and good fortune (if you're seeing the ravens gather, then lucky you, it's some other guys who died in battle). So "bright" because you want your kid to be celebrated, and "raven" because ravens are just cool man.
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In fact, the Germanic name elements are freely combining ignoring a consistent meaning. So don't take that "bright raven" too literally. Also black birds can be shiny, having somewhat reflecting feathers.
The meaning of bert is primary the visual appearance, related to that is, e.g., the modern English word birch, the tree is named for its white bark. The meaning of bert (older: bercht) is well established. The same holds for ram, older hraban "raven". There are no alternate sources for both name elements, and there are no close-by name elements with which they can mix ("contamination" in more technical language).
Camembert is interesting, anylysed as "Camp Maimbert" (field of Maimbert), Maimbert is obviously a personal name and derived from Megin-Bert.
P.S. Looking for reliable sources: Here's one in German:
Dräger, Kathrin, Bertram, in: Digitales Familiennamenwörterbuch Deutschlands,
URL: http://www.namenforschung.net/id/name/434/1
The meaning of bert is primary the visual appearance, related to that is, e.g., the modern English word birch, the tree is named for its white bark. The meaning of bert (older: bercht) is well established. The same holds for ram, older hraban "raven". There are no alternate sources for both name elements, and there are no close-by name elements with which they can mix ("contamination" in more technical language).
Camembert is interesting, anylysed as "Camp Maimbert" (field of Maimbert), Maimbert is obviously a personal name and derived from Megin-Bert.
P.S. Looking for reliable sources: Here's one in German:
Dräger, Kathrin, Bertram, in: Digitales Familiennamenwörterbuch Deutschlands,
URL: http://www.namenforschung.net/id/name/434/1
This message was edited today, 7:21 AM
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The bright is the bright that means sparkling/radiating/shining.
Bertram would be 'shining raven' rather than white raven or light raven. Like you can say to a dark haired person they look radiating.
This from a reliable source:
https://nvb.meertens.knaw.nl/verklaring/naam/Bertram
It's in Dutch, but that eliminates the issue with what exactly is mean with the word 'bright'
Bertram would be 'shining raven' rather than white raven or light raven. Like you can say to a dark haired person they look radiating.
This from a reliable source:
https://nvb.meertens.knaw.nl/verklaring/naam/Bertram
It's in Dutch, but that eliminates the issue with what exactly is mean with the word 'bright'
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