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Help[Facts] not what i'd call "traditional"
in reply to a message by Lethe
I saw that, and I wouldn't call Gertrude or some of the others they mentioned, like Ethel, "traditional" names as such. There is a world of difference to me between Gertrude, and names like Mary or Katherine. Gertrude was not used in England before around the 19th century; it's a German name. It became trendy as part of a larger vogue for Germanic sounding names, before that trend died out in the early 20th century. Likewise, a lot of Old English names were revived from obscurity in Victorian times, before becoming unfashionable. A name like Ethel spent hundreds of years in name purgatory before it came back into fashion. And now it's been out of fashion for a hundred years - well, relatively speaking, that's not long. It's almost like an article appearing in 2108 bemoaning the disappearance of "classics" like Chelsea and Paige.
On the bright side, if you look at the British charts, they are predominantly traditional. Almost overwhelmingly so at the top end of the chart. Looking at the top 50, apart from a few nicknames as given names like Katie and Evie, there are only Madison and Summer which strike me as modern innovations. The boys' list paints a similar picture. Yes, there are 'trendy' new names, just like there have been in any era. But to say that the use of traditional names is "in freefall" when the boys' top 10 names could almost have come from 100 or 200 years ago strikes me as silly. I'm actually quite proud of our UK name charts and think that as a country, we tend to do names pretty well :)
(By the way, Lethe, I'm not criticising you, just the article! Thanks for posting it!)
On the bright side, if you look at the British charts, they are predominantly traditional. Almost overwhelmingly so at the top end of the chart. Looking at the top 50, apart from a few nicknames as given names like Katie and Evie, there are only Madison and Summer which strike me as modern innovations. The boys' list paints a similar picture. Yes, there are 'trendy' new names, just like there have been in any era. But to say that the use of traditional names is "in freefall" when the boys' top 10 names could almost have come from 100 or 200 years ago strikes me as silly. I'm actually quite proud of our UK name charts and think that as a country, we tend to do names pretty well :)
(By the way, Lethe, I'm not criticising you, just the article! Thanks for posting it!)
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Replies
I think the British are using too many crappy nicknames as given names, like Ellie and Evie (which are both really babyish). I don't mind Katie as a given name, though.
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I agree with you, I don't like it either, but the nicknames themselves are at least not made-up or "celebrity-inspired" names like the article was talking about. I'd rather be Eleanor, Eve or Katherine on the dotted line, but I'd take Ellie, Evie or Katie over Madison, Addison, Brianna, Savannah or Nevaeh, which all feature in the US top 50 for example (although I believe Madison's crept into our top 50 too). I suppose as a Brit, my tastes are broadly in line with the zeitgeist, that's all. Our charts aren't perfect :)
By the way, your squirrel signature made me laugh literally out loud, I didn't realise for a second that it wasn't part of the rest of the post so it briefly scrambled my brain!
By the way, your squirrel signature made me laugh literally out loud, I didn't realise for a second that it wasn't part of the rest of the post so it briefly scrambled my brain!
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my excuse is that it was late last night when I posted, and while you're very nice about it, I realise I didn't word my summary very well. After re-reading the article again, it does seem to differentiate between enduring traditional names, and those considered 'old-fashioned' like Irene and Norman which are in decline.
I think you have a point about some of the names they comment on. Quite a few of them, like Gertrude and Norman I don't think have ever been particularly popular in Scotland compared to England, so it's harder for me to tell, but having been looking into the family tree, I would only expect to find such names from about my grandparents generation. Any further back and you run into a seemingly endless cycle of 'traditional' names like James, Andrew, Thomas, Mary, Catherine, Isabella, most of which are still popular today.
I agree with you, we do generally do alright in the UK, I struggle to find anything remotely as 'interesting' as Sabrinas posts in our bas.
I think you have a point about some of the names they comment on. Quite a few of them, like Gertrude and Norman I don't think have ever been particularly popular in Scotland compared to England, so it's harder for me to tell, but having been looking into the family tree, I would only expect to find such names from about my grandparents generation. Any further back and you run into a seemingly endless cycle of 'traditional' names like James, Andrew, Thomas, Mary, Catherine, Isabella, most of which are still popular today.
I agree with you, we do generally do alright in the UK, I struggle to find anything remotely as 'interesting' as Sabrinas posts in our bas.
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About Gertrude
I found it on a list of 'The Most Usual Christian Names of Men and Women' in the back of a English dictionary from 1796 so Gertrude was used before the 19th century here.
The full list:
http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=3206247&board=baby
Plus, the entry for Gertrude in this database says it was introduced into England in the 15th century and Shakespeare used it.
I found it on a list of 'The Most Usual Christian Names of Men and Women' in the back of a English dictionary from 1796 so Gertrude was used before the 19th century here.
The full list:
http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=3206247&board=baby
Plus, the entry for Gertrude in this database says it was introduced into England in the 15th century and Shakespeare used it.
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Ah, thanks for the info. I guess I should have said that Gertrude was a *trendy* name in the 19th century - I don't believe it was particularly fashionable in the preceding centuries, although I don't have any stats or anything - just an impression! I guess by 1796 it had become widespread and was maybe poised to be big (guess being the operative word). I agree with Anneza though, that Shakespeare probably used the name with northern Europe in mind.
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Shakespeare used Gertrude for Hamlet's mum, the queen of Denmark, so he seems to have associated it with northern Europe.
I find some of the entries in your 1796 list fascinating: Hierom, for instance, but not Jerome. Strange! Rice I suppose is Rhys. Could Benigma be Benigna, if the printing is sometimes unclear? That would be less odd. As for Fortune, Hagar, Jacquet and Sisera ... who says the world hasn't improved?
I don't imagine the compiler of that list did original research as we would understand it: probably just liked names and noted them down when he encountered them. Nice chap!
I find some of the entries in your 1796 list fascinating: Hierom, for instance, but not Jerome. Strange! Rice I suppose is Rhys. Could Benigma be Benigna, if the printing is sometimes unclear? That would be less odd. As for Fortune, Hagar, Jacquet and Sisera ... who says the world hasn't improved?
I don't imagine the compiler of that list did original research as we would understand it: probably just liked names and noted them down when he encountered them. Nice chap!
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I agree about the UK name charts. I look at ours (US ones) and must hang my head in shame. :)
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