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Help[Opinions] Ok, but
in reply to a message by queenv
It has nothing to do with my skin colour compared with the skin colour of the child being named. If the child was white, brown or green my opinion of naming a child Sir (especially in an English speaking country) is going to be the same - it will cause confusion in everyday life and I dislike it. In no way at any point did I say my opinion mattered more than any other poster's in this discussion (or anywhere on this planet). My point was that on a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour. It is the intended purpose of the board after all. My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of residence are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
Some of this was in response to SlytherClaw but I'm not going to reply twice since I'm on my phone.
Some of this was in response to SlytherClaw but I'm not going to reply twice since I'm on my phone.
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Replies
Just because you would say the same about a white or green child being given the same name does not mean that you can say it about a black child being given the name. No, it doesn't. Because a white or a green child would not be given the name as part of their culture. And a white or green child would not have created that culture in an environment of historical oppression of white people or green people and in a milieu of resistance to that oppression.
I'm going to be blunt.
On a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour.
No, you don't, when it comes to African-American names.
My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of resident are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
When it comes to African-American names, yes, they are.
I was just blunt and I said it because obviously I have to be blunt. You are reeking of white privilege right now. And it is quite quite true that because you are an Australian, it's far more likely that you will have a lot less understanding of this issue than an American will, though God knows there a lot of Americans who could do with a lot more understanding.
I'm going to be blunt.
On a name opinions board I get to have an opinion on a name (ANY name) and so does everyone else, regardless of their skin colour.
No, you don't, when it comes to African-American names.
My skin colour, my culture, my country of origin or my country of resident are NOT qualifiers of whether I can or cannot have an opinion on a name.
When it comes to African-American names, yes, they are.
I was just blunt and I said it because obviously I have to be blunt. You are reeking of white privilege right now. And it is quite quite true that because you are an Australian, it's far more likely that you will have a lot less understanding of this issue than an American will, though God knows there a lot of Americans who could do with a lot more understanding.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 8:34 PM
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So if I were to follow your above statements
(and not the general guidelines of the board) I have to now preface every response to a poster on this name opinions board with my identifying statisitics, ask them theirs (in case they are African-American), and if I am "allowed" to make a response to their post asking for opinions on names or if they would like my response?
Curious to know, but this topic is probably dead now anyway...
(and not the general guidelines of the board) I have to now preface every response to a poster on this name opinions board with my identifying statisitics, ask them theirs (in case they are African-American), and if I am "allowed" to make a response to their post asking for opinions on names or if they would like my response?
Curious to know, but this topic is probably dead now anyway...
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LOL No. All I'd ask is that if you recognize an African-American name, you decline to comment. If you make an honest mistake because you didn't recognize a name as such, well, we all make mistakes. I'd just hope that if that happened and you'd made a negative comment and if all this whole can of worms were opened up again (but I'm not planning to open it), that you'd just say, "Oh I didn't recognize it as an African-American name" and leave it at that.
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Ok, thanks for replying.
Btw, I never made a negative comment in the original instance (as in the name was dumb etc.), all I said was that it would cause confusion.
Btw, I never made a negative comment in the original instance (as in the name was dumb etc.), all I said was that it would cause confusion.
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No, but if you had a poster make a list of names like Deshawn, Kaeshae, Princess, Arynthya, Caliyya, Kenetra, Sir, Marquis and Chiquita then I think it would be a good idea to maybe ASK if they are African-American before slamming those names. Or come at it like, "I don't think I can judge these names fairly because I am not apart of the naming culture from which they came- a naming culture that arose solely due to oppression."
That is the difference between judging say, a Japanese name, and an African-American name- Japanese names come from a long standing language of a people who built an empire and their culture and language persist today without oppression. The African-American naming culture is unique in that it came from using elements of English names to create new names that were not associated with the whites who oppressed them and owned them for hundreds of years and that are not associated with the dominant white culture that still oppresses.
ETA: If given a list, I think it would be fair to comment that Sir might cause some confusion for the kid because it is a commonly used title for any man, so maybe Deshawn or Marquis are preferable. I don't think it would be okay to call it "stupid" for being on the list considering it does fall into standard African-American naming cultural trends.
That is the difference between judging say, a Japanese name, and an African-American name- Japanese names come from a long standing language of a people who built an empire and their culture and language persist today without oppression. The African-American naming culture is unique in that it came from using elements of English names to create new names that were not associated with the whites who oppressed them and owned them for hundreds of years and that are not associated with the dominant white culture that still oppresses.
ETA: If given a list, I think it would be fair to comment that Sir might cause some confusion for the kid because it is a commonly used title for any man, so maybe Deshawn or Marquis are preferable. I don't think it would be okay to call it "stupid" for being on the list considering it does fall into standard African-American naming cultural trends.
This message was edited 7/18/2017, 3:17 PM
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Thank you for explaining the difference between why the judgement of a Japanese name and the judgement of an African-American name are different. I didn't think of it in that sense. It is different because Japanese oppression stems from their culture (like, Americans oppressed the Japanese because they were Japanese), whereas African-American culture stemmed from oppression. I think I may have changed sides on this a bit. Thanks to you and queenv for that.
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No worries :)
And while the Japanese were oppressed around WW2 with the internment camps here and things, they haven't been oppressed in nearly the same way as African-Americans have. African-American people have been oppressed and not treated as fully human or part of society for hundreds of years as slaves, then all the way through Jim Crow, and still are to a large degree now despite Civil Rights. Civil Rights only gave them LEGAL rights and brought some empowerment and ended legal segregation and that only happened in the 1960s- there are POC still alive today that had to drink from a certain fountain, attend a certain school, ride in one part of the bus, and who lived in servitude. Lynchings happened regularly in the South up until the 1950s and 60s.
This isn't an "old" problem. It still happens in more insidious ways. Planned and purposeful segregation still happens that circumvents the laws.
It's something we as white people need to recognize- however hard we work, a black person in the same position needs to work much harder. Most black people begin way way wayyyyy behind the starting block we are on due to centuries of oppression. We need to recognize our privilege and do what we can to remedy it. It doesn't take away from our personal accomplishments as we can't help to whom we were born...but either can they. I believe in equality and that means that I need to recognize that I have been "lucky" to be born white by chance and fight for others who were not.
And while the Japanese were oppressed around WW2 with the internment camps here and things, they haven't been oppressed in nearly the same way as African-Americans have. African-American people have been oppressed and not treated as fully human or part of society for hundreds of years as slaves, then all the way through Jim Crow, and still are to a large degree now despite Civil Rights. Civil Rights only gave them LEGAL rights and brought some empowerment and ended legal segregation and that only happened in the 1960s- there are POC still alive today that had to drink from a certain fountain, attend a certain school, ride in one part of the bus, and who lived in servitude. Lynchings happened regularly in the South up until the 1950s and 60s.
This isn't an "old" problem. It still happens in more insidious ways. Planned and purposeful segregation still happens that circumvents the laws.
It's something we as white people need to recognize- however hard we work, a black person in the same position needs to work much harder. Most black people begin way way wayyyyy behind the starting block we are on due to centuries of oppression. We need to recognize our privilege and do what we can to remedy it. It doesn't take away from our personal accomplishments as we can't help to whom we were born...but either can they. I believe in equality and that means that I need to recognize that I have been "lucky" to be born white by chance and fight for others who were not.
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Wow. This is very sad. I didn't realize how severe the oppression was.
I've known less than 10 African-Americans in my whole life. The majority demographic where I use to live was white. Most POC were Asian. The concept of white privilege is a relatively new concept for me, and I only learned about it because of the internet. I'm grateful I moved to Charlotte, so I can see a different racial dynamic and notice my white privilege more.
Thanks for sharing this information. It was interesting and eye-opening.
I've known less than 10 African-Americans in my whole life. The majority demographic where I use to live was white. Most POC were Asian. The concept of white privilege is a relatively new concept for me, and I only learned about it because of the internet. I'm grateful I moved to Charlotte, so I can see a different racial dynamic and notice my white privilege more.
Thanks for sharing this information. It was interesting and eye-opening.
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Which is what I said in my original response (it would cause confusion). At no point did I "slam" the name or call it stupid etc. :)
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I didn't say you did- it's just a common thing that does happen and I don't think noting that it could cause confusion is really so much an "opinion" as an observation. I was more replying to the direct reply about how it meant you couldn't have an opinion on any name from another culture on a name opinions board. To me, an opinion is a bit more a statement on whether you personally like that name. For example, with the name Jethro, I could state that it does have an association with the Beverley Hillbiliies (observation) but I could also state that I dislike it because it sounds really country and stupid (opinion). For the name Latoya, I could state that it has an association with Latoya Jackson (observation) and then a common white perspective would be to say it sounds 'ghetto' or 'trashy' (opinion).
I'm not saying you did that at all but in response to your comment about having opinions on names, I do think there is a very big difference between me having an opinion on a name historically used within white culture like Jethro and me having an opinion as a white person on a name that has come to be used in African-American culture. I can make an observation but I don't think it's okay for me or anyone outside of the culture to have an opinion on an African-American name. It does not matter whether or not I like the name 'Sir'- I can definitely make the observation that it could be a confusing name to have- but not an opinion whether it is 'good' or 'bad'.
I hope that makes sense :)
ETA: I think there is also baggage that comes with opining on African-American names that is racially based. For example, the whole 'ghetto' or 'trashy' opinion on many of them comes from the association of black people in poorer areas, which in itself is due to institutionalized racism and the fact that the civil rights movement was so recent and that many are still not treated as equal members of society.
I'm not saying you did that at all but in response to your comment about having opinions on names, I do think there is a very big difference between me having an opinion on a name historically used within white culture like Jethro and me having an opinion as a white person on a name that has come to be used in African-American culture. I can make an observation but I don't think it's okay for me or anyone outside of the culture to have an opinion on an African-American name. It does not matter whether or not I like the name 'Sir'- I can definitely make the observation that it could be a confusing name to have- but not an opinion whether it is 'good' or 'bad'.
I hope that makes sense :)
ETA: I think there is also baggage that comes with opining on African-American names that is racially based. For example, the whole 'ghetto' or 'trashy' opinion on many of them comes from the association of black people in poorer areas, which in itself is due to institutionalized racism and the fact that the civil rights movement was so recent and that many are still not treated as equal members of society.
This message was edited 7/18/2017, 4:34 PM
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I appreciate you taking the time to reply.
I still stand by anyone having (and giving if they choose) an opinion on any name on a name opinions board, that's what it is for - to share opinions, impressions, observations, experiences etc. etc. on names.
I try (probably don't always succeed) to give constructive/useful opinions, not simply deride a name, and will continue to do so.
I still stand by anyone having (and giving if they choose) an opinion on any name on a name opinions board, that's what it is for - to share opinions, impressions, observations, experiences etc. etc. on names.
I try (probably don't always succeed) to give constructive/useful opinions, not simply deride a name, and will continue to do so.
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Do you think it's okay to have an opinion of "I like/do not like this name" without saying it is good or bad, or do you think opinions of any sort on African-American names should only be held by African-Americans?
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about cultural appropriation, and this ties into it. It's given me many things to ruminate on.
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about cultural appropriation, and this ties into it. It's given me many things to ruminate on.
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I think we all have initial responses of "I like" or "I don't like," it's just important to analyze WHY you have that reaction. And usually, when you have a reaction of "I don't like that" to a 'foreign' name it's because some part of it is not native to you- so you haven't been exposed to it enough to have a truly objection opinion.
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That makes sense. I think maybe these gut reactions can also be based in racism. Not just "I dislike the sound" but "I dislike it because it is trashy". It can lead down a dangerous path, like we just discussed.
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We'll have to agree to disagree
:)
:)
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Haha, typing on the phone sucks.
I pretty much agree with you. But I don't think queenv was trying to be harsh or say that you don't deserve to have an opinion. I think I get where both of you are coming from, so, yeah...
I pretty much agree with you. But I don't think queenv was trying to be harsh or say that you don't deserve to have an opinion. I think I get where both of you are coming from, so, yeah...
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Well, now you might want to re-think this, lol.
This is not directed at you, I'm just putting it here. I can't say how disheartening it is to see people flaunt their white privilege and their, to use Petra's apt phrase, white fragility over and over and over again and then continually refuse to see the error of their ways.
This is not directed at you, I'm just putting it here. I can't say how disheartening it is to see people flaunt their white privilege and their, to use Petra's apt phrase, white fragility over and over and over again and then continually refuse to see the error of their ways.
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Haha, yeah, I'm definitely thinking about it. I think what I'm stuck on is mainly what I get stuck on when it comes to a lot of things I disagree with socially and politically - the question of "if we deem this to be unacceptable, where do we draw the line?"
Question: Do you feel differently about my having an opinion on this to know that I am biracial (I am not African-American, though)? Is that different to you than me being purely white, or do you think that only people from a certain culture should form opinions about names from that culture?
ETA: One more question. Would you feel different if it was a Japanese celebrity giving her child a Japanese name, knowing that they faced oppression in America as well?
I'm not trying to be rude or harsh here. I just honestly want to know, because I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong here. It's totally possible that I'm being a jackass. So I want to have this conversation purely because I'm opening my mind to this.
Question: Do you feel differently about my having an opinion on this to know that I am biracial (I am not African-American, though)? Is that different to you than me being purely white, or do you think that only people from a certain culture should form opinions about names from that culture?
ETA: One more question. Would you feel different if it was a Japanese celebrity giving her child a Japanese name, knowing that they faced oppression in America as well?
I'm not trying to be rude or harsh here. I just honestly want to know, because I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong here. It's totally possible that I'm being a jackass. So I want to have this conversation purely because I'm opening my mind to this.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 8:51 PM
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I did already know that you are biracial, but not part African-American. I think you said your father is Indian?
The only way that I would feel differently about it is if you were African-American or biracial, being half African-American. I think that they, and only they, can judge the names of their culture. I do not feel this way about other cultures. The African-American culture is singular. It has a singular origin and a singular history. You can't draw any conclusions on how I feel about other cultures from the way that I feel about African-American culture. Of course, all cultures have their own origins and history, but what I mean is that there are things about African-American culture origin and history that set it apart from the rest.
ETA: Not exactly. The Japanese did not, and no other group has, suffered the same level of oppression and discrimination in the US that blacks have. OTOH, it would be annoying to see people saying, "That name is ugly" about a Japanese name. I don't think one can really appreciate Japanese names without being part of or very familiar with their culture.
The only way that I would feel differently about it is if you were African-American or biracial, being half African-American. I think that they, and only they, can judge the names of their culture. I do not feel this way about other cultures. The African-American culture is singular. It has a singular origin and a singular history. You can't draw any conclusions on how I feel about other cultures from the way that I feel about African-American culture. Of course, all cultures have their own origins and history, but what I mean is that there are things about African-American culture origin and history that set it apart from the rest.
ETA: Not exactly. The Japanese did not, and no other group has, suffered the same level of oppression and discrimination in the US that blacks have. OTOH, it would be annoying to see people saying, "That name is ugly" about a Japanese name. I don't think one can really appreciate Japanese names without being part of or very familiar with their culture.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 9:00 PM
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Yes, my father is from India! :)
I can understand that. I'm assuming the reason you hold different opinions about opinions on African-American culture versus any other is because they faced the worst oppression. I have to ruminate on this some more, so I might edit this tomorrow after I've fully processed it. The one thing I'm not positive about is black people facing the worst oppression, though you're probably right; I just don't know enough about racial oppression to be sure. I'll do some more research.
I have to admit, I am now wishing I was closer with my half-black cousins so I could ask them how they feel about this. Until I moved to Charlotte, I'd met maybe 10 African-Americans in my life, so I've never actually really seen racism and how it affects people. I've heard my father's stories, being Indian, and that's it. Where I used to live, people were very quietly racist (so much so that I didn't realize they were at all until recently) and not open about it.
Okay, it's taken me so long to type this that I've thought about it more. When I think of "Sir" as being a black culture name, I feel very differently about it. Because I was thinking about how much I hate it when people laugh at my father's name, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I would be horrified if I saw someone mocking a Mexican or Russian name, so why is this different? I think it's an example of severe internalized racism, especially for someone who has been passionately against racism for as long as she can remember. I still think it's fine to have a gut reaction of "I like/do not like this name" but not fine to think "this is a bad name/foolish name/etc", purely because one is based on simple, reactive, aesthetic style and another is based on judgement. Good job, you got me thinking and got me to change my opinions. This has been a really interesting discussion so far.
I can understand that. I'm assuming the reason you hold different opinions about opinions on African-American culture versus any other is because they faced the worst oppression. I have to ruminate on this some more, so I might edit this tomorrow after I've fully processed it. The one thing I'm not positive about is black people facing the worst oppression, though you're probably right; I just don't know enough about racial oppression to be sure. I'll do some more research.
I have to admit, I am now wishing I was closer with my half-black cousins so I could ask them how they feel about this. Until I moved to Charlotte, I'd met maybe 10 African-Americans in my life, so I've never actually really seen racism and how it affects people. I've heard my father's stories, being Indian, and that's it. Where I used to live, people were very quietly racist (so much so that I didn't realize they were at all until recently) and not open about it.
Okay, it's taken me so long to type this that I've thought about it more. When I think of "Sir" as being a black culture name, I feel very differently about it. Because I was thinking about how much I hate it when people laugh at my father's name, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I would be horrified if I saw someone mocking a Mexican or Russian name, so why is this different? I think it's an example of severe internalized racism, especially for someone who has been passionately against racism for as long as she can remember. I still think it's fine to have a gut reaction of "I like/do not like this name" but not fine to think "this is a bad name/foolish name/etc", purely because one is based on simple, reactive, aesthetic style and another is based on judgement. Good job, you got me thinking and got me to change my opinions. This has been a really interesting discussion so far.
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