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ArchivesRe: "Jewish" surnames?
in reply to a message by Jen
OK, where to begin.
Jewish people emigrated into countries and stayed in their own small groups with languages, such as Yiddish, that were not used by the rest of the country they inhabited (except in borrowed language). No, Judaism is not a nationality, and in the subject of language it is not treated as such.
When surnames were becoming hereditary, Jews did not inhabit one single country but still used a common language, Hebrew (mainly as a second language of course). This itself would have led to names such as Cohen which were directly taken from Hebrew. These names, as well as names derived from Yiddish (a mix between Hebrew, German and Slavic) could be described as nothing else but Jewish, they aren't Israeli obviously (there are a few Israeli Hebrew names taken up in the last 100 years or so), so what else would you call them.
Then you have names that are taken directly from the language from which the people lived (eg. German). Names such as these are often used by both German gentiles and German Jews because they have dual etymologies, a German one and a Yiddish one that were similar because of the obvious similarities in language and therefore ended up as the same surname.
The truth is, if your surname is actually considered Jewish in the linguistic field,then it is because that it had Yiddish (which is often similar if not identical to German words) or Hebrew.
Names that have are not descended from Yiddish or Hebrew words and are still considered Jewish are probably called that because Jews are the only ones that took it as a surname.
Jewish names (of which there are many dispite your views to the contrary) are taken from German words, Polish words, Yiddish words and Hebrew words. Jewish names are fairly unique in the sense that they cannot be put into the simple categories of nationalities.
I'm sure that names that are mainly used by Christians in non-Christian countries are referred to as Christian names.
I don't really understand why you should take such exception to this categorization of surnames, it isn't done to segregate people but simply because often the names that are used by Jews (whatever their language of origin) are only used by Jews. You are not being 'lumped in', it is a necessary category of names borne out of unique circumstances.
I hope this helps you understand just a little bit (but I am no expert) as to why this categorization is necessary. :)
Jewish people emigrated into countries and stayed in their own small groups with languages, such as Yiddish, that were not used by the rest of the country they inhabited (except in borrowed language). No, Judaism is not a nationality, and in the subject of language it is not treated as such.
When surnames were becoming hereditary, Jews did not inhabit one single country but still used a common language, Hebrew (mainly as a second language of course). This itself would have led to names such as Cohen which were directly taken from Hebrew. These names, as well as names derived from Yiddish (a mix between Hebrew, German and Slavic) could be described as nothing else but Jewish, they aren't Israeli obviously (there are a few Israeli Hebrew names taken up in the last 100 years or so), so what else would you call them.
Then you have names that are taken directly from the language from which the people lived (eg. German). Names such as these are often used by both German gentiles and German Jews because they have dual etymologies, a German one and a Yiddish one that were similar because of the obvious similarities in language and therefore ended up as the same surname.
The truth is, if your surname is actually considered Jewish in the linguistic field,then it is because that it had Yiddish (which is often similar if not identical to German words) or Hebrew.
Names that have are not descended from Yiddish or Hebrew words and are still considered Jewish are probably called that because Jews are the only ones that took it as a surname.
Jewish names (of which there are many dispite your views to the contrary) are taken from German words, Polish words, Yiddish words and Hebrew words. Jewish names are fairly unique in the sense that they cannot be put into the simple categories of nationalities.
I'm sure that names that are mainly used by Christians in non-Christian countries are referred to as Christian names.
I don't really understand why you should take such exception to this categorization of surnames, it isn't done to segregate people but simply because often the names that are used by Jews (whatever their language of origin) are only used by Jews. You are not being 'lumped in', it is a necessary category of names borne out of unique circumstances.
I hope this helps you understand just a little bit (but I am no expert) as to why this categorization is necessary. :)
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Replies
Kynaston has explained this very clearly and I don't think he needs to apologise for anything.
Religion is a very important factor in nomenclature, not only for Jewish names. Some examples - Makkawi is an Arab surname; if I were to explain it I would have to point out that it is a Muslim name. Yuhana, Shidyaq and Khuri are also Arab surnames, but any explanation would be incomplete that did not describe them as Christian Arab names.
Popov , Popovic, etc., are Slavic surnames of the Orthodox community, not Catholic or Protestant.
When the Jews of Germany were made to take permanent surnames in the late 18th century they often adopted existing German surnames. But sometimes those names had a different meaning for Jews; Sachs is one example. As a German surname it meant someone from Saxony; as a Jewish surname it was adopted in commemoration of martyred ancestors. Sachs stood for ZKS, Zera Kodeshim Shemo. Some names are Jewish - not Hebrew, not Yiddish, not Israeli - Jewish.
Religion is a very important factor in nomenclature, not only for Jewish names. Some examples - Makkawi is an Arab surname; if I were to explain it I would have to point out that it is a Muslim name. Yuhana, Shidyaq and Khuri are also Arab surnames, but any explanation would be incomplete that did not describe them as Christian Arab names.
Popov , Popovic, etc., are Slavic surnames of the Orthodox community, not Catholic or Protestant.
When the Jews of Germany were made to take permanent surnames in the late 18th century they often adopted existing German surnames. But sometimes those names had a different meaning for Jews; Sachs is one example. As a German surname it meant someone from Saxony; as a Jewish surname it was adopted in commemoration of martyred ancestors. Sachs stood for ZKS, Zera Kodeshim Shemo. Some names are Jewish - not Hebrew, not Yiddish, not Israeli - Jewish.
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Jewish is a religion. The other nationalities in the list of nationalities are nationalities.
My name is not "Jewish," and it is uncommon in the US though common in Germanic countries. When I am asked the nationality of my name, I am not being asked my religion. If the site were to divide names by religion, okay, but it is only doing so for one religion.
Your history is indecipherable; I don't know what time in history you're referring to. There have been many times in history that Jews have left their homelands, and your ideas about assimilation ("When surnames were becoming hereditary, Jews did not inhabit one single country but still used a common language") is false and predicated on dates and countries unmentioned in your post -- again, when in history, what countries, why do you assume Jews in particular did not take the tongue of the country to which they moved...?
And, as you said, as a language, Jewish is not one; nor is it a nationality. To ask me my nationality--where is my family from--and expect Jewish rather than German as an answer is prejudiced. I don't expect "Christian" if I hear an unusual name and ask a person where he's from.
Of course it's offensive, as is your post which proports to know history yet is muddled by inaccuracy and starts "Where to begin..." then ends "Hope this helps you understand a little bit." Of course it wasn't informative, other than to show why, perhaps, there is the bias on the existing list of nationalities.
My name is not "Jewish," and it is uncommon in the US though common in Germanic countries. When I am asked the nationality of my name, I am not being asked my religion. If the site were to divide names by religion, okay, but it is only doing so for one religion.
Your history is indecipherable; I don't know what time in history you're referring to. There have been many times in history that Jews have left their homelands, and your ideas about assimilation ("When surnames were becoming hereditary, Jews did not inhabit one single country but still used a common language") is false and predicated on dates and countries unmentioned in your post -- again, when in history, what countries, why do you assume Jews in particular did not take the tongue of the country to which they moved...?
And, as you said, as a language, Jewish is not one; nor is it a nationality. To ask me my nationality--where is my family from--and expect Jewish rather than German as an answer is prejudiced. I don't expect "Christian" if I hear an unusual name and ask a person where he's from.
Of course it's offensive, as is your post which proports to know history yet is muddled by inaccuracy and starts "Where to begin..." then ends "Hope this helps you understand a little bit." Of course it wasn't informative, other than to show why, perhaps, there is the bias on the existing list of nationalities.
1
And, as you said, as a language, Jewish is not one; nor is it a nationality. To ask me my nationality--where is my family from--and expect Jewish rather than German as an answer is prejudiced. I don't expect "Christian" if I hear an unusual name and ask a person where he's from.
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That is why we no longer refer to one's Christian name. Afraid to offend someone.
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That is why we no longer refer to one's Christian name. Afraid to offend someone.
1
Sorry about my previous post, I sort of had too many thoughts in my head and couldn't get them out properly.
This label of 'Jewish names' is necessay because the names it covers are unique to the religion or have a specific etymology based on a Hebrew related language. Also surnames are not only listed as nationalities but also as languages, and Muslim names are often called Muslim names not necessarily Iraqi etc.
"why do you assume Jews in particular did not take the tongue of the country to which they moved...? "
Of course they took on the language of the country they inhabited and I never suggested otherwise but you cannot possibly deny the influence Hebrew would have had on the language that they used, eg. Yiddish (that's all I was saying).
I myself have Jewish blood, and personally don't see what there is to take offence at, for me when looking up my ancestors find that gaining information from surnames helps.
"My name is not "Jewish," and it is uncommon in the US though common in Germanic countries. "
Every classification has exceptions of course, I'm sure many people with English surnames are not English or do not have English blood. I'm sure that there are people with surnames considered Muslim, that are Christians.
"To ask me my nationality--where is my family from--and expect Jewish rather than German as an answer is prejudiced."
This I find rather strange. If I asked you where your family came from (and they came from Germany), I personally would expect you to say Germany not Jewish - that makes no sense. But I personally find that all the categorization of certain surnames as Jewish adds an extra dimension to the history of a name, it's shows that your family were not only German but (probably) of Jewish extraction. I would rather my surname (Brown - yawn) told me more about my history and ancestry and if my surname could tell me my more I would be happier not offended.
I don't have an arguement against you being offended, I don't see what offends you, but it's up to you. I personally have never met another Jew who found the classification offensive (there was even a Jewish website that was claiming non-Jews with Jewish surnames - such as Ben Cohen, who has Jewish ancestry but isn't Jewish himself - as a joke) and I'm sure you will find that most experts on Jewish surnames are in fact Jewish.
This label of 'Jewish names' is necessay because the names it covers are unique to the religion or have a specific etymology based on a Hebrew related language. Also surnames are not only listed as nationalities but also as languages, and Muslim names are often called Muslim names not necessarily Iraqi etc.
"why do you assume Jews in particular did not take the tongue of the country to which they moved...? "
Of course they took on the language of the country they inhabited and I never suggested otherwise but you cannot possibly deny the influence Hebrew would have had on the language that they used, eg. Yiddish (that's all I was saying).
I myself have Jewish blood, and personally don't see what there is to take offence at, for me when looking up my ancestors find that gaining information from surnames helps.
"My name is not "Jewish," and it is uncommon in the US though common in Germanic countries. "
Every classification has exceptions of course, I'm sure many people with English surnames are not English or do not have English blood. I'm sure that there are people with surnames considered Muslim, that are Christians.
"To ask me my nationality--where is my family from--and expect Jewish rather than German as an answer is prejudiced."
This I find rather strange. If I asked you where your family came from (and they came from Germany), I personally would expect you to say Germany not Jewish - that makes no sense. But I personally find that all the categorization of certain surnames as Jewish adds an extra dimension to the history of a name, it's shows that your family were not only German but (probably) of Jewish extraction. I would rather my surname (Brown - yawn) told me more about my history and ancestry and if my surname could tell me my more I would be happier not offended.
I don't have an arguement against you being offended, I don't see what offends you, but it's up to you. I personally have never met another Jew who found the classification offensive (there was even a Jewish website that was claiming non-Jews with Jewish surnames - such as Ben Cohen, who has Jewish ancestry but isn't Jewish himself - as a joke) and I'm sure you will find that most experts on Jewish surnames are in fact Jewish.
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