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Help[Facts] Kirk and Colleen
First, the meaning of Kirk puts it as church. Are churches in Scotland called kirks? Second, is the name used in Scotland? THird: If it was a word, how did it become a name?
"Same questions apply with Colleen, except for Ireland instead of Scotland
"Same questions apply with Colleen, except for Ireland instead of Scotland
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Colleen was indeed first turned into a given name in the USA and Australia. It was not used as a name in Ireland until famous American actresses named Colleen (Dewhurst, for example) somewhat legitimized it in Ireland, and it got a bit of use there in the 1980s (but was never popular).
I have a friend who was born in the USA around 1950 named Colleen. Her paternal grandmother was born in Ireland, and she has told me that the grandmother was very upset at her son for naming his daughter Colleen. She says it was years before the grandmother stopped asking her son "When are you going to give the colleen a real name?" :)
I have a friend who was born in the USA around 1950 named Colleen. Her paternal grandmother was born in Ireland, and she has told me that the grandmother was very upset at her son for naming his daughter Colleen. She says it was years before the grandmother stopped asking her son "When are you going to give the colleen a real name?" :)
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I understand that...
But why would Irish imigrants name their daughter girl to begin with?
But why would Irish imigrants name their daughter girl to begin with?
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Notice that in the story of my friend it is not the original IMMIGRANT who named her daughter Colleen, but her son, the second-generation Irish-American. I would assume that the first persons who turned the word "colleen" into a name were primarily people who had Irish ancestry but were not themselves intimately involved with the culture of the home country. In the American context, "Colleen" sounded like a girls' name because there were many other names ending in the "een" sound being used at the time, and second or third generation Irish Americans thought it was a "cool" idea to use it as a name for their daughters, with no understanding that people back in Ireland itself would think that was ludicrous.
There are many examples of words from one culture or language that have been turned into names in another culture because of romantic associations with the culture that language comes from, but which were NOT used as names in the original culture. The idea of turning the French word mignon, meaning "dainty", into a given name started with the German poet Goethe. Going back to the Irish, Erin, the poetic term for Ireland, was not used as a given name in Ireland itself but is another American idea. Many names used by African-Americans in the USA today taken from the Swahili language, such as Nia (from the Swahili word for "purpose"), are not used as names in the Swahili speaking areas of East Africa. The name Amanda comes from a Latin word meaning "worthy of love", but it was not used as a name by the ancient Romans, only being created in the 17th century by English playwrights.
There are many examples of words from one culture or language that have been turned into names in another culture because of romantic associations with the culture that language comes from, but which were NOT used as names in the original culture. The idea of turning the French word mignon, meaning "dainty", into a given name started with the German poet Goethe. Going back to the Irish, Erin, the poetic term for Ireland, was not used as a given name in Ireland itself but is another American idea. Many names used by African-Americans in the USA today taken from the Swahili language, such as Nia (from the Swahili word for "purpose"), are not used as names in the Swahili speaking areas of East Africa. The name Amanda comes from a Latin word meaning "worthy of love", but it was not used as a name by the ancient Romans, only being created in the 17th century by English playwrights.
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Cool, thanks.
You always give such good answers.
You always give such good answers.
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Kirk is a Scottish word for "church", generically speaking, but now it is used (often with a capital K) to refer to the Church of Scotland as an institution. I say "now" but I expect that's been the case since the Reformation, when a distinction first needed to be made. The mainland Church of Scotland is a laid-back, Protestant, Presbyterian Church - it has women ministers, and I'm fairly sure its clergy perform same-sex civil unions. They are much more "staunch" in the Highlands and islands, though. There was an uproar about ferries operating on the Sabbath, which pretty much sums up the difference.
"Does he go to kirk or chapel?" used to be a way of asking if someone was Catholic or Protestant, but in this secular age, it's outdated. Nobody asks because frankly, these days very few people go to either. My dad's family is Catholic, however, and my grandmother would not appreciate a great-grandson named Kirk! (She's practising, and of a generation that feels it is important.) None of this ought to bother you since you're clearly not in Scotland :-)
About the surname ... I expect it just denoted someone who lived near a church, originally. No it isn't an established in first name in Scotland. Many surnames as first names are primarily American in usage, and Kirk is just another of them.
I thought Colleen was originally taken up by Irish immigrants - or their descendants - in countries such as America and Australia. I don't think it has significant usage in Ireland.
Edited: I cannot spell today!
"Does he go to kirk or chapel?" used to be a way of asking if someone was Catholic or Protestant, but in this secular age, it's outdated. Nobody asks because frankly, these days very few people go to either. My dad's family is Catholic, however, and my grandmother would not appreciate a great-grandson named Kirk! (She's practising, and of a generation that feels it is important.) None of this ought to bother you since you're clearly not in Scotland :-)
About the surname ... I expect it just denoted someone who lived near a church, originally. No it isn't an established in first name in Scotland. Many surnames as first names are primarily American in usage, and Kirk is just another of them.
I thought Colleen was originally taken up by Irish immigrants - or their descendants - in countries such as America and Australia. I don't think it has significant usage in Ireland.
Edited: I cannot spell today!
This message was edited 3/22/2007, 8:52 AM
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