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Help[Facts] Provencal? French? Little green space alienese?
Eleanor = the French form of the Provençal name Aenor, plus Alia = other. OK? The other Aenor. Interesting approach to baby naming ... but not unheard-of. So far, so good.
But, where does Aenor come from? Eleanor of Aquitaine's mum was presumably not the first person to have it ... or was she? As the mother of the world's first Eleanor, who knows what else she might have achieved?
Anyone ... ?
But, where does Aenor come from? Eleanor of Aquitaine's mum was presumably not the first person to have it ... or was she? As the mother of the world's first Eleanor, who knows what else she might have achieved?
Anyone ... ?
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Replies
Mike C, please check out Lumia's post.
It should be acknowledged, I think - not sure how, though. Amending the Eleanor entry?
All the best
It should be acknowledged, I think - not sure how, though. Amending the Eleanor entry?
All the best
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I was just going to post this.
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The first reference to the name is found in the person of Aimery II de Thouars's wife, Alienor (910/915-995), also cited as Allanor and Alianor and also known as Hardouine:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/continent/qrstu/thouars1.htm
http://www.afn.org/~lawson/d0003/g0000034.html#I5498
http://fabpedigree.com/s017/f289956.htm
Her grand-grandson Geoffroy de Thouars's wife was named Aenor (Aenor de Blois), and she is also documented as Ainor/Aynor/Ainora and Adenordis:
"(25) Elle est dite Adenordis (cartulaire de St-Jouin-de-Marnes, p. 1-3; Archives Historiques de la Saintonge et de l'Aunis, tome XXX, p. 314-317, n° 257); Ainor (Archives Historiques du Poitou, tome III, p. 106, n° 158; p. 110, n° 167; p. 112-113, n° 173), Aynor (ibid., tome XVI, p. 106-107, n° 88)."
http://poitou.ifrance.com/famthouars.htm
That and the fact that her granddaughter Aenor de Thouars (1050-1088/93), Eleanor of Aquitaine's grand-grandmother, was cited in some documents as Adenor, Aenors and Aleanor/Alienor made think in Aenor as a hypochoristic form of Adenor, by fall of the intervocalic –d- (Adenordis > Adenors > Adenor > Aenor) in a similar process to the process that generates the form Aalis (Adalhaid > Adalaid > Adalais > Adalis > Aalis).
http://www.chretiens-chatellerault.com.fr/Histoire_%20Locale/Histoire_pages/histoire_Philippe_Bellin.htm
http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0chatellera.htm
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/continent/qrstu/thouars1.htm
http://www.afn.org/~lawson/d0003/g0000034.html#I5498
http://fabpedigree.com/s017/f289956.htm
Her grand-grandson Geoffroy de Thouars's wife was named Aenor (Aenor de Blois), and she is also documented as Ainor/Aynor/Ainora and Adenordis:
"(25) Elle est dite Adenordis (cartulaire de St-Jouin-de-Marnes, p. 1-3; Archives Historiques de la Saintonge et de l'Aunis, tome XXX, p. 314-317, n° 257); Ainor (Archives Historiques du Poitou, tome III, p. 106, n° 158; p. 110, n° 167; p. 112-113, n° 173), Aynor (ibid., tome XVI, p. 106-107, n° 88)."
http://poitou.ifrance.com/famthouars.htm
That and the fact that her granddaughter Aenor de Thouars (1050-1088/93), Eleanor of Aquitaine's grand-grandmother, was cited in some documents as Adenor, Aenors and Aleanor/Alienor made think in Aenor as a hypochoristic form of Adenor, by fall of the intervocalic –d- (Adenordis > Adenors > Adenor > Aenor) in a similar process to the process that generates the form Aalis (Adalhaid > Adalaid > Adalais > Adalis > Aalis).
http://www.chretiens-chatellerault.com.fr/Histoire_%20Locale/Histoire_pages/histoire_Philippe_Bellin.htm
http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0chatellera.htm
This message was edited 6/13/2007, 11:00 AM
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*Awed*
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Wow, Lumia, this is beyond wonderful! If you ever come to South Africa, there'll be a big chocolate cake awaiting you ...
It makes total sense for such an old name to have a Germanic origin! I was wondering about that, but in Eleanor of Aquitaine's time it would be pretty improbable. But your 10th century references solve that issue conclusively, I'd say. They also explain how what would otherwise have been a nonce name - a one-off - apparently caught on fast all over Europe and remained in use: it was there all the time ...
Don't know that the dropped -d- is necessarily hypochoristic, though. It could have disappeared after turning into a Cockney-style glottal stop (usually done with /t/, but I've heard /d/ pronounced with that ' as well); or, it's also possible to get from /d/ to /l/ quickly and easily if the /d/ is rapidly pronounced, more like a flap, so you end up close to the Welsh double-l (though not the Spanish :)); from that to a single /l/ is a small step.
And we might even be able to retain cute little baby Eleanor: her first attempts to say her own name could have reminded the adults around her of great-great-granny Alienor de Thouars, or simply of Ali-Aenor, and it would then have become the name that she was known by.
Your research should be more widely known ...
All the best
It makes total sense for such an old name to have a Germanic origin! I was wondering about that, but in Eleanor of Aquitaine's time it would be pretty improbable. But your 10th century references solve that issue conclusively, I'd say. They also explain how what would otherwise have been a nonce name - a one-off - apparently caught on fast all over Europe and remained in use: it was there all the time ...
Don't know that the dropped -d- is necessarily hypochoristic, though. It could have disappeared after turning into a Cockney-style glottal stop (usually done with /t/, but I've heard /d/ pronounced with that ' as well); or, it's also possible to get from /d/ to /l/ quickly and easily if the /d/ is rapidly pronounced, more like a flap, so you end up close to the Welsh double-l (though not the Spanish :)); from that to a single /l/ is a small step.
And we might even be able to retain cute little baby Eleanor: her first attempts to say her own name could have reminded the adults around her of great-great-granny Alienor de Thouars, or simply of Ali-Aenor, and it would then have become the name that she was known by.
Your research should be more widely known ...
All the best
1
It *IS* widely known . . .
I live far, far away (easy there, Fiona!) and I know about Lumia's work! ;op
Ps.:
Hola Lumia! como te va?!
I live far, far away (easy there, Fiona!) and I know about Lumia's work! ;op
Ps.:
Hola Lumia! como te va?!
1
Wow ...... o_o
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I guess you known about http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-08/1154425205
(Read in context: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-08/1154561271)
(Read in context: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-08/1154561271)
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General Google, but waiting for Lumia would have been simpler :-)
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No, I didn't - thanks, Tanmoy! (But I did know the Latin quote ... don't ask.)
The closest I could get from southern Europe was an Elionor in 1490; and she was Catalan, so she might well not prove anything.
The closest I could get from southern Europe was an Elionor in 1490; and she was Catalan, so she might well not prove anything.
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Somebody asked this before here, without success however:
http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=372619&board=gen
I know from the build-up of my own name database that it is very tempting to go back as far as possible, e.g. if a name means "son of x", to ask, well fine, but what means x? And so on. But I have seldom been successful because very soon you reach back so far into the past that information is impossible to come by.
I googled a little and got this impression as well in the case of Aenor: I think the meaning of this name is lost in the mist of times.
http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=372619&board=gen
I know from the build-up of my own name database that it is very tempting to go back as far as possible, e.g. if a name means "son of x", to ask, well fine, but what means x? And so on. But I have seldom been successful because very soon you reach back so far into the past that information is impossible to come by.
I googled a little and got this impression as well in the case of Aenor: I think the meaning of this name is lost in the mist of times.
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