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Help[Facts] Re: Hebrew script for possible Mary-related words?
in reply to a message by Noa
First, I should warn you that the script you typed appeared as gobbledygook Latin characters on my Unicode-encoded screen until I switched to Hebrew (Windows-1255) character encoding.
Re: #3, here's the quote (bolding mine):
Gesenius was the first to consider miryam as a compound of the noun meri and the pronominal suffix am; this word actually occurs in II Esd., ix, 17, meaning "their rebellion". But such an expression is not a suitable name for a young girl. Gesenius himself abandoned this explanation, but it was adopted by some of his followers, e.g. by J. Grimm (Das Leben Jesu; sec. edit., I, 414-431, Regensburg, 1890) and Schanz (Comment. uber d. Ev. d. hl. Matthäus, p. 78, Freiburg, 1879).
"Pronominal" means "of, pertaining to, resembling, or functioning as of a pronoun". So in the phrase meri am, the pronominal word am turns meri "rebellion" into the phrase "their rebellion"; am in this case is the word "their", but maybe it could function as other pronouns too (like "I", "you", "him"/"her", "my", "who", "each other", etc.)?
EDIT: I just remembered that I've read elsewhere that -am is a feminine diminutive in Hebrew (perhaps akin to Latin -illa or -ina or Italian -etta or -ella?). I've got no sources on hand for that, but does that ring a bell?
Re: #6, no I meant marar, not marir (again, bolding mine):
Other meanings assigned to miryam viewed as a simple word are: bitter one, great sorrow (from marar or marah; cf. Simonis, Onomasticum Veteris Testamenti, Halae Magdeburgicae, 1741, p. 360; Onom. Novi Test., ibid., 1762, p. 106)...
It could be the essay's mistake, I don't know.
Thank you for your help!
Miranda
Re: #3, here's the quote (bolding mine):
Gesenius was the first to consider miryam as a compound of the noun meri and the pronominal suffix am; this word actually occurs in II Esd., ix, 17, meaning "their rebellion". But such an expression is not a suitable name for a young girl. Gesenius himself abandoned this explanation, but it was adopted by some of his followers, e.g. by J. Grimm (Das Leben Jesu; sec. edit., I, 414-431, Regensburg, 1890) and Schanz (Comment. uber d. Ev. d. hl. Matthäus, p. 78, Freiburg, 1879).
"Pronominal" means "of, pertaining to, resembling, or functioning as of a pronoun". So in the phrase meri am, the pronominal word am turns meri "rebellion" into the phrase "their rebellion"; am in this case is the word "their", but maybe it could function as other pronouns too (like "I", "you", "him"/"her", "my", "who", "each other", etc.)?
EDIT: I just remembered that I've read elsewhere that -am is a feminine diminutive in Hebrew (perhaps akin to Latin -illa or -ina or Italian -etta or -ella?). I've got no sources on hand for that, but does that ring a bell?
Re: #6, no I meant marar, not marir (again, bolding mine):
Other meanings assigned to miryam viewed as a simple word are: bitter one, great sorrow (from marar or marah; cf. Simonis, Onomasticum Veteris Testamenti, Halae Magdeburgicae, 1741, p. 360; Onom. Novi Test., ibid., 1762, p. 106)...
It could be the essay's mistake, I don't know.
Thank you for your help!
Miranda
This message was edited 9/20/2007, 2:41 PM
1
Replies
Oh, I get it.
Yes, "am" (the letter mem) turns a word into "their" [word]. It doesn't have a space, so it'd be mariam (îøéí). That would be pronounced meh-ree-AHM, not like Miryam. Because of that, and because that sort of expression doesn't generally fit in with normal naming practises, I doubt this explanation.
And adding "-am" functions only as "their" (the male their - that is, plural, with at least one male) - the other pronouns each have their own form (if you want, I'll list them).
And as for marar: I don't know the form, so either it was used only in the Bible or it doesn't exist. But I think it would be îÈøÈø if it exists.
How do you make Hebrew script not appear as gobbledygook?
Noa
Yes, "am" (the letter mem) turns a word into "their" [word]. It doesn't have a space, so it'd be mariam (îøéí). That would be pronounced meh-ree-AHM, not like Miryam. Because of that, and because that sort of expression doesn't generally fit in with normal naming practises, I doubt this explanation.
And adding "-am" functions only as "their" (the male their - that is, plural, with at least one male) - the other pronouns each have their own form (if you want, I'll list them).
And as for marar: I don't know the form, so either it was used only in the Bible or it doesn't exist. But I think it would be îÈøÈø if it exists.
How do you make Hebrew script not appear as gobbledygook?
Noa
1
Ah, thank you very much! :-D
But now you've made me curious about the other pronouns! If it isn't too much trouble, I would like to see them. No biggie if you can't do it right away or anything. :-)
As for (hopefully) viewing non-gobbledygook Hebrew, at least in Firefox 2.0.0.6:
1. Go to View
2. Go to Character Encoding
3. Go to More Encodings
4. Go to Middle Eastern
5. Select the Hebrew encoding that works for you--in my case that was Hebrew (Windows-1255)
As for typing Hebrew so it doesn't turn gobbledygook in the first place, I don't know. I just cut-pasted words from various sources on the web, and the Hebrew remained intact that way. Sorry!
But now you've made me curious about the other pronouns! If it isn't too much trouble, I would like to see them. No biggie if you can't do it right away or anything. :-)
As for (hopefully) viewing non-gobbledygook Hebrew, at least in Firefox 2.0.0.6:
1. Go to View
2. Go to Character Encoding
3. Go to More Encodings
4. Go to Middle Eastern
5. Select the Hebrew encoding that works for you--in my case that was Hebrew (Windows-1255)
As for typing Hebrew so it doesn't turn gobbledygook in the first place, I don't know. I just cut-pasted words from various sources on the web, and the Hebrew remained intact that way. Sorry!
1
All right - the other pronouns. (Sorry for the wait; I went to bed.)
All of these suffixes go on a singular male noun - my book, not my books - and I'm adding them onto the word ëìá (celev - dog) because I have no idea how to get a nikkud under an X:
My: "-i" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÄé) calbi
Our: "-enu" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÅðåÌ) calbenu
Your:
Singular male: "-cha" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀêÈ) calbecha
Singular female: "-ech" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÅêÀ ) calbech
Plural male (group with at least one male in it): "-chem" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀëÆí) calbechem
Plural female (group made entirely of females): "-chen" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀëÆï) calbechen
His: "-o" (ëÌÇìÀáÌåÉ) calbo
Her: "-ah" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈäÌ) calbah (the dot in the heh is important - otherwise it would just mean female dog)
Their:
Male: "-am" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈí) calbam
Female: "-an" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈï) calban
For female subjects ending in a ä, the heh turns into a ú and then you add the suffixes above. Her dog = ëÌÇìÀáÌÈúÈäÌ
When the subject is plural, it changes a little too.
It looks terribly complicated, doesn't it? It isn't really - all of these words are just a contraction of all the forms of the word shel (belonging to) - sheli (mine), shelo (his), shelah (hers), shelahem (theirs), etc. - with the subjects they refer to. haCelev sheli -> calbi.
And yes, everything in Hebrew has a gender. No such word as IT.
Noa
If you have any more questions, ask.
All of these suffixes go on a singular male noun - my book, not my books - and I'm adding them onto the word ëìá (celev - dog) because I have no idea how to get a nikkud under an X:
My: "-i" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÄé) calbi
Our: "-enu" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÅðåÌ) calbenu
Your:
Singular male: "-cha" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀêÈ) calbecha
Singular female: "-ech" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÅêÀ ) calbech
Plural male (group with at least one male in it): "-chem" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀëÆí) calbechem
Plural female (group made entirely of females): "-chen" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÀëÆï) calbechen
His: "-o" (ëÌÇìÀáÌåÉ) calbo
Her: "-ah" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈäÌ) calbah (the dot in the heh is important - otherwise it would just mean female dog)
Their:
Male: "-am" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈí) calbam
Female: "-an" (ëÌÇìÀáÌÈï) calban
For female subjects ending in a ä, the heh turns into a ú and then you add the suffixes above. Her dog = ëÌÇìÀáÌÈúÈäÌ
When the subject is plural, it changes a little too.
It looks terribly complicated, doesn't it? It isn't really - all of these words are just a contraction of all the forms of the word shel (belonging to) - sheli (mine), shelo (his), shelah (hers), shelahem (theirs), etc. - with the subjects they refer to. haCelev sheli -> calbi.
And yes, everything in Hebrew has a gender. No such word as IT.
Noa
If you have any more questions, ask.
This message was edited 9/25/2007, 12:51 PM
1
Wow, that's cool! Again, thanks so much! :-D
a
a
1