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Help[Opinions] Re: Darlene
in reply to a message by Amy
To clarify, in a Philly accent, I a mean the T's the middle of a word are pronounced a basically like "d", or just aren't enunciated at the end of a word.
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But isn't pronouncing the T's in the middle of a word as if they are D's typical of all American speech--not just that of Philadelphians? As opposed to the way the British pronounce the words, I mean.
I once had a friend who was American, but she was the daughter of Italian immigrants. For some reason, I think that the fact that she was the daughter of Italian immigrants has some bearing on this--perhaps it caused her to look upon Americanisms and American speech somewhat differently than those of us who are not so recently descended from Europeans.
Anyway, although she spoke perfectly fluent English with an American accent and no trace at all of any Italian accent, though she was fluent in Italian, she always made a big effort to meticulously pronounce the T sound in words such as "matter" and names such as "Patty". She told me she thought that it was lazy of Americans to say "madder" for "matter" and "Paddy" for "Patty." I made the argument that laziness has nothing to do with it, it's just the American accent and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I pointed out that, in fact, Americans pronounce out every syllable in words such as "laboratory", "secretary", and "waistcoat", while the British slur over them, so you could make the argument that the British are lazy there.
My sister-in-law grew up in southern New Jersey, very close to Philadelphia, and has a Philly accent. The main thing I've always noticed about her accent is, for example, she says "I doan't knoaw" instead of "I don't know." Also really draws out the A sound in words like "harp" so it sounds more like "horp." I never took notice of how she pronounces D's in the middle of words because it doesn't sound any different to me than any other American.
I once had a friend who was American, but she was the daughter of Italian immigrants. For some reason, I think that the fact that she was the daughter of Italian immigrants has some bearing on this--perhaps it caused her to look upon Americanisms and American speech somewhat differently than those of us who are not so recently descended from Europeans.
Anyway, although she spoke perfectly fluent English with an American accent and no trace at all of any Italian accent, though she was fluent in Italian, she always made a big effort to meticulously pronounce the T sound in words such as "matter" and names such as "Patty". She told me she thought that it was lazy of Americans to say "madder" for "matter" and "Paddy" for "Patty." I made the argument that laziness has nothing to do with it, it's just the American accent and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I pointed out that, in fact, Americans pronounce out every syllable in words such as "laboratory", "secretary", and "waistcoat", while the British slur over them, so you could make the argument that the British are lazy there.
My sister-in-law grew up in southern New Jersey, very close to Philadelphia, and has a Philly accent. The main thing I've always noticed about her accent is, for example, she says "I doan't knoaw" instead of "I don't know." Also really draws out the A sound in words like "harp" so it sounds more like "horp." I never took notice of how she pronounces D's in the middle of words because it doesn't sound any different to me than any other American.
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I live in Rhode Island, and in our accent "harp" would sound like "haahhp." I say "coffee" like "cawwwfee," but my cousin from western Massachusetts says "cahfee." I had a very strong accent when I was very young. I have a video tape somewhere of my graduation from kindergarten in 1987, and the kids each a line from a little "story" about the first day of school. My line was "We said goodbye to our mothers," which sounded like "We sed goodbye to ah muhthizz" when I watched it. I'm mortified. My pronunciation has drastically improved, but the trashy accent still comes out a bit when I get emotional :-P
T's are definitely D's here. I had minor reservations at first when I decided to go by my MN, because without a doubt it would be pronounced "Fee-yuh-medduh." I got over it pretty quick, though.
T's are definitely D's here. I had minor reservations at first when I decided to go by my MN, because without a doubt it would be pronounced "Fee-yuh-medduh." I got over it pretty quick, though.
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I don't think that you should have been ashamed of your accent, and I don't think that any accent is trashy. Nor do I think that efforts should be made to change them. They are interesting and I'm glad they exist. I think it would be pretty boring if we all spoke exactly the same.
I'm from northern New Jersey and I also say coffee as "Cawwwfee". Fifteen years in South Carolina hasn't changed that, and I'm glad.
I'm from northern New Jersey and I also say coffee as "Cawwwfee". Fifteen years in South Carolina hasn't changed that, and I'm glad.
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I remember the first time I attended church in the Chicago area,I noted that the diety was pronounced as "Gaaad", or even"Gaaa.."
(I'm Canadian, for new posters.)
Actually, once I took an on-line quiz to see what part of the U.S. I came from. I figured I sound like the state of Maine, as I'm on the East coast, but when I pressed the "results" indicator, a Canadian flag unfurled.
(I'm Canadian, for new posters.)
Actually, once I took an on-line quiz to see what part of the U.S. I came from. I figured I sound like the state of Maine, as I'm on the East coast, but when I pressed the "results" indicator, a Canadian flag unfurled.
This message was edited 4/5/2012, 7:20 PM
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Yes, you're right; I think in most places in the U.S., they don't enunciate the T. But I remember when I brought up that I liked Etta but I worried that it would get confused with Edda, which sounded the same, people kept telling me on here it sounded different when they said it, as well as my friend who was raised in suburbs. But my point is that Marita sounds especially unattractive in our accent, not because of the T, but when I switch to a more "suburban" accent, the t has a softer sound to it somehow.
And yep, the most defining characteristic is the nagging emphasis on vowels in the Philadelphia accent, like you mentioned with the A sound, which I think is why Darlene doesn't sound very good with it. I took a history of Philadelphia course and the professor pointed out like an almost an urgent whining sound to it. Not as fast as New York, but very straight forward and insisting.
And yep, the most defining characteristic is the nagging emphasis on vowels in the Philadelphia accent, like you mentioned with the A sound, which I think is why Darlene doesn't sound very good with it. I took a history of Philadelphia course and the professor pointed out like an almost an urgent whining sound to it. Not as fast as New York, but very straight forward and insisting.
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But isn't pronouncing the T's in the middle of a word as if they are D's typical of all American speech--not just that of Philadelphians? As opposed to the way the British pronounce the words, I mean.
You are correct. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English (see "The flapping of intervocalic /t/ and /d/ to alveolar tap [ɾ] before unstressed vowels")
You are correct. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English (see "The flapping of intervocalic /t/ and /d/ to alveolar tap [ɾ] before unstressed vowels")
This message was edited 4/5/2012, 1:47 PM
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OT: accents
I'll grant you most people in the UK would say la bor uh tree and sek ruh tree (or sometimes sek uh tree) but I've never heard anyone here pronounce waistcoat as anything other than waist+coat - in fact I'm not even sure how else you could pronounce it!
Also: not everyone here pronounces their 't's. Londoners and most Southerners pronounce matter more like ma'uh.
I'll grant you most people in the UK would say la bor uh tree and sek ruh tree (or sometimes sek uh tree) but I've never heard anyone here pronounce waistcoat as anything other than waist+coat - in fact I'm not even sure how else you could pronounce it!
Also: not everyone here pronounces their 't's. Londoners and most Southerners pronounce matter more like ma'uh.
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Well, there you go! Proves my point. But I thought that some British, at least, pronounce waistcoat as "weskit." Not that there's much call to use that word these days, anyway.
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My dad sometimes says "weskit". It is an old pronunciation and I think he just says it because it's more interesting but everyone else I know says waistcoat. I think I'm right in saying American's call them vests?
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Actually, yes, we do call them vests. To be honest, I've never in my life heard anyone say the word "waistcoat", British or American. Somewhere, somehow, I read that the British say "weskit", while Americans would say "waistcoat" and that's why I used it as an example.
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