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Help[Opinions] Re: Jemima
in reply to a message by RoxStar
It isn't naïve if you don't associate the name so strongly or at all. Especially if you have other associations. Just because of a negative association from a food product in a country you don't belong, does not mean you can't use a name you enjoy or even be honorific.
I understand completely within the US to stop using it entirely, but not anywhere else. America isn't the centre of the universe. We don't have to know about your syrup lmao
I understand completely within the US to stop using it entirely, but not anywhere else. America isn't the centre of the universe. We don't have to know about your syrup lmao
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I never said ...
Or implied that the US is the center of the universe. But you are being very naïve if you think that in this day and age, nobody where you live knows about the syrup (lmao aren't we just so funny) or the broader implications of the name as an epithet or caricature. And those who do know will think you are either uninformed or being deliberately provocative.
Or implied that the US is the center of the universe. But you are being very naïve if you think that in this day and age, nobody where you live knows about the syrup (lmao aren't we just so funny) or the broader implications of the name as an epithet or caricature. And those who do know will think you are either uninformed or being deliberately provocative.
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I spoke about the Aunt Jemima topic with my friend group the other day, the same day I made the post about it. I asked them about the name out of vague interest. None of them had heard the name outside of one who grew up with Play School and a couple who associated it with Peter Rabbit. I had entirely forgotten about the Play School association until then (though I never grew up with Peter Rabbit so while that would be a massive association for many people, it isn't personally).
Most of the group are a little younger as they're primarily from university and went there straight from college, as opposed to myself and Becky who went into apprenticeships first. It's not surprising they wouldn't know Play School, they were more LazyTown era, something that Becky and I just missed.
So we're talking about a group of 12 mostly young adults aged 21 - 26, some graduated university, some still in university. Primarily female and two males. Most are from the surrounding Midlands area, some are from elsewhere in England. All are white aside from one whose grandparents were born in China. This isn't the best representation of the whole of Britain, but not a single one knew of the syrup.
My point didn't come from nowhere, I didn't just assume. Why would we know a syrup that's only American? It's not as if it's some interesting foreign sweet like Hirshy's Kisses or Lucky Charms that's stocked in the foreign section of sweet shops. We simply just don't know the syrup.
It's syrup.
We have a bit more pressing matters on the news, in case you've missed it. It's not surprising it's not been covered to such lengths outside of America
Most of the group are a little younger as they're primarily from university and went there straight from college, as opposed to myself and Becky who went into apprenticeships first. It's not surprising they wouldn't know Play School, they were more LazyTown era, something that Becky and I just missed.
So we're talking about a group of 12 mostly young adults aged 21 - 26, some graduated university, some still in university. Primarily female and two males. Most are from the surrounding Midlands area, some are from elsewhere in England. All are white aside from one whose grandparents were born in China. This isn't the best representation of the whole of Britain, but not a single one knew of the syrup.
My point didn't come from nowhere, I didn't just assume. Why would we know a syrup that's only American? It's not as if it's some interesting foreign sweet like Hirshy's Kisses or Lucky Charms that's stocked in the foreign section of sweet shops. We simply just don't know the syrup.
It's syrup.
We have a bit more pressing matters on the news, in case you've missed it. It's not surprising it's not been covered to such lengths outside of America
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No, the US isn't the center of the world. However, if I found out that a name I liked was associated heavily with racism, chattel slavery, lynching, and the continued persecution of a minority population originally kidnapped and brought there in chains, I sure as hell wouldn't want to use it. I recognize that a lot of people feel a lot of disdain for the US and its citizens' ethnocentrism, and I think it's justified. A lot of us don't like the country any more than you do. But it's not really about that, anymore than refusing to use a name associated with the British empire's centuries of tyranny would be a tacit acceptance or bolstering of current sentiments of British exceptionalismism / England as the master culture. It's about solidarity with an oppressed group.
I get that lots of people don't know about the association between the name and the racist caricature / slur, but it seems willfully, almost obstinately callous to ignore the implications of you are aware of them.
I get that lots of people don't know about the association between the name and the racist caricature / slur, but it seems willfully, almost obstinately callous to ignore the implications of you are aware of them.
This message was edited 9/27/2020, 11:30 AM
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The implications of Jemima here are completely different. Most of us have grown up with a positive connotation of the name Jemima because our most popular kids show has a main character/doll named Jemima, or the popular Peter Rabbit series has Jemima puddle duck.
I grew up with two friends named Jemima, so it's still very much useable here. I don't fully understand the whole Aunt Jemima thing as it's something that I had literally never heard about before being on these boards.
I would still use it because of the positive associations we have with the name.
I grew up with two friends named Jemima, so it's still very much useable here. I don't fully understand the whole Aunt Jemima thing as it's something that I had literally never heard about before being on these boards.
I would still use it because of the positive associations we have with the name.
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Would lots of black, white or whatever other possible variation little girls named Jemima not launch a rehabilitation programme? Jemima is a respectable biblical name with a good eytmology; why allow the long-ago choice of an advertising agency to consign it to limbo? It seems to me that there is a weird resemblance between this Jemima controversy, if that is what it is, and some people's public denialism about, say, wearing masks: their personal decision to do what they like takes precedence over science, sense and reason. I hope I'm wrong. But it does look strange from outside.
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I'd say that if anyone should attempt to reclaim the name, it should be those who the name has been used against, just like LGBTQ people have reclaimed "queer."
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not likely ...
I very much doubt that any black parents within my lifetime or the lifetime of even the youngest posters on this board will do that.
I very much doubt that any black parents within my lifetime or the lifetime of even the youngest posters on this board will do that.
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I doubt it too. I was just making the point that I don't think a bunch of white people using it would rub the stain off the name.
This message was edited 9/27/2020, 1:36 PM
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I agree. Jemima is a name more than the one stereotypical instance, as is Remus (Uncle Remus). NOBODY is harping on Remus despite the decades-long slamming of Song of the South. There's many people out there with the name Jemima. Should they legally change their names now?
We're talking about the use of a name of a brand of syrup that exists in one country vs the rest of the world, AND the entire history of Jemima uses.
We're talking about the use of a name of a brand of syrup that exists in one country vs the rest of the world, AND the entire history of Jemima uses.
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Well, no ones harping on Remus because no one uses the name Remus. Just like almost no one uses Jemima here.
I also agree with Martha that your remark about people changing their names was way divergent from the original argument and has nothing to do with anything.
But I agree with you that it’s not a big deal in England where the brand doesn’t exist.
And I did read the thread on the lounge about how the ancestors of Jemima feel about it and it gave me more nuanced opinions of the situation overall. I wouldn’t speak on behalf of black ppl about whether using the name is offensive/hurtful to them or not. Just for me personally, my first association is a black nanny brand image and I wouldn’t feel comfortable using it - not bc its offensive to others, but bc it turns me off personally.
I also agree with Martha that your remark about people changing their names was way divergent from the original argument and has nothing to do with anything.
But I agree with you that it’s not a big deal in England where the brand doesn’t exist.
And I did read the thread on the lounge about how the ancestors of Jemima feel about it and it gave me more nuanced opinions of the situation overall. I wouldn’t speak on behalf of black ppl about whether using the name is offensive/hurtful to them or not. Just for me personally, my first association is a black nanny brand image and I wouldn’t feel comfortable using it - not bc its offensive to others, but bc it turns me off personally.
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That's fair. I re read my post and other's posts and I think I misread or misunderstood something, it does seem very divergent.
I do agree that now I'm very aware of the association, rather than it, say, being a passing news article heading, I'd be less inclined to use it myself. However I wouldn't feel like other's were being insensitive at all if they did... unless they're American and in which case I hope it was honorific.
I do agree that now I'm very aware of the association, rather than it, say, being a passing news article heading, I'd be less inclined to use it myself. However I wouldn't feel like other's were being insensitive at all if they did... unless they're American and in which case I hope it was honorific.
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What a jump to make. No one said anything about changing anyone's name. That argumentative tactic has further undercut your original argument in my eyes.
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But you are implying that any use of the name would be insensitive, period, no matter if they lived in England nor China. It seems silly to impose this on everybody else when we don't have the same associations.
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I'm saying that use by anyone who knows about the racist associations with the names is callous. That means someone doing the naming, not someone with the name.
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What if they're naming their kid after their late mother or grandmother? Is that still considered callous?
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Hmm, well, if they were aware, I'd probably think it was a little insensitive, yes. I wouldn't think someone who used the name was a horrible person or a racist. I'd think "I don't like with this person's choice. I think it's insensitive" and I'd move on.
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Okay I suppose that's fair enough. I personally disagree with the level of insensitivity the use would have outside the US, but that's alright :)
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It's quite true that the US is not the center of the universe and I can certainly understand others not quite getting the unfortunate history of the name Jemima here. It goes way beyond just associating it with pancakes and syrup. Calling someone "Aunt Jemima" is basically a racial slur. It's such a shame because I really do like the name. But I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole no matter where I lived.
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Are you saying that people actually go around calling other people 'Aunt Jemima'? The world gets odder, every time I look.
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Warning: intentional use of slurs for discussion purposes
I believe, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the use of "Aunt Jemima" as a slur would be in a similar vein to "Golliwog."
Eg: "That Golliwog over there" vs "Aunt Jemima over there." - at least, this is how I see it being used, as opposed to directly to face? I'm unsure. This is the closest comparison I can think of. The Golliwog's were used for Robinson's Marmalade in the 70s at least, maybe before then. It seems Aunt Jemima might be utilised in a similar fashion.
Is this accurate?
I believe, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the use of "Aunt Jemima" as a slur would be in a similar vein to "Golliwog."
Eg: "That Golliwog over there" vs "Aunt Jemima over there." - at least, this is how I see it being used, as opposed to directly to face? I'm unsure. This is the closest comparison I can think of. The Golliwog's were used for Robinson's Marmalade in the 70s at least, maybe before then. It seems Aunt Jemima might be utilised in a similar fashion.
Is this accurate?
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Words, including racial slurs, are regional.
For most people in the UK and Australia, Jemima is the doll on Play School.
For most people in the UK and Australia, Jemima is the doll on Play School.
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But now even regional words become known in other places. More people in the US know what a chav is now than even ten years ago, for instance.
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Yes, but 'chav' is a word which is a slur in and of itself, not a name. I would certainly never refer to someone as an "aunt Jemima" because that would clearly be a slur, but the name by itself, thoroughly removed from the context in which it was used as a slur, doesn't carry the same weight.
I'm struggling to articulate exactly what I mean, but I feel like insisting that the name should be off-limits everywhere is spreading the slur further rather than getting rid of it?
I'm struggling to articulate exactly what I mean, but I feel like insisting that the name should be off-limits everywhere is spreading the slur further rather than getting rid of it?
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Yes, I think that's what I struggled to articulate the other day also
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Yes I think Play School would be the most common association here. Play School ran for over two decades (60s - 80s). It might not be as well known with kids nowadays, but it was rerun for years in the 90s and into the early 2000s (I think, at least I saw it alongside Playdays (80s - 90s) and Rainbow (70s - 90s) - meaning they were all reruns in the early 2000s).
I highly doubt anybody is going to be running around calling people Aunt Jemima. I had NEVER heard that as a slur before it was brought up here, in fact, I didn't even know there was a controversy with the name. The British media simply didn't report it. Perhaps they might have if they needed a dead donkey to fill the air time, but with the virus going around and death tolls to report, it was simply dropped.
And if /I/ didn't hear of it, as a person with mild interest in such world affairs, then I highly doubt your common Tom, Dick and Harry will know. If they did, they'd probably forget about it. Because it isn't OUR syrup, it means nothing to us. If it was Lyal's Golden Syrup, a syrup brand known in the UK, then that'd catch ears, it'd remind them every time they see the syrup. But asking the random English person who "Aunt Jemima" is, they'd most likely shrug or ask "who??"
Here's an example;
Does anybody know that the logo for Lyal's Golden Syrup is literally a picture of a lion carcass with bees buzzing around it? Weird thing right? Pretty memorable. But you probably didn't, you've probably never seen the logo before. Because it's British and not American. We have a literal dead lion on our syrup, but you'd most likely entirely forget about this not long after you read this, because you don't see the logo on a regular basis. I might remember Jemima, but I'm a member of Behind the Name and I inherently have a more of a reason to remember it compared to the lass who works at the hairdressers who prefers to read fashion mags and watch beauty youtubers. She probably vaguely remembers Jemima from Play School, that cute toddler programme she used to watch as a young girl.
This is the difference.
I highly doubt anybody is going to be running around calling people Aunt Jemima. I had NEVER heard that as a slur before it was brought up here, in fact, I didn't even know there was a controversy with the name. The British media simply didn't report it. Perhaps they might have if they needed a dead donkey to fill the air time, but with the virus going around and death tolls to report, it was simply dropped.
And if /I/ didn't hear of it, as a person with mild interest in such world affairs, then I highly doubt your common Tom, Dick and Harry will know. If they did, they'd probably forget about it. Because it isn't OUR syrup, it means nothing to us. If it was Lyal's Golden Syrup, a syrup brand known in the UK, then that'd catch ears, it'd remind them every time they see the syrup. But asking the random English person who "Aunt Jemima" is, they'd most likely shrug or ask "who??"
Here's an example;
Does anybody know that the logo for Lyal's Golden Syrup is literally a picture of a lion carcass with bees buzzing around it? Weird thing right? Pretty memorable. But you probably didn't, you've probably never seen the logo before. Because it's British and not American. We have a literal dead lion on our syrup, but you'd most likely entirely forget about this not long after you read this, because you don't see the logo on a regular basis. I might remember Jemima, but I'm a member of Behind the Name and I inherently have a more of a reason to remember it compared to the lass who works at the hairdressers who prefers to read fashion mags and watch beauty youtubers. She probably vaguely remembers Jemima from Play School, that cute toddler programme she used to watch as a young girl.
This is the difference.
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