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Help[Opinions] Re: Hera (edited)
in reply to a message by mirfak
I was never in conflict with your point if it's exclusively (it doesn't need to be meaningfully symbolic in order to be used in modern times as a name).
I've been thinking, mainly, that people probably aren't thinking of Hera, if they're thinking of her outside the context of ancient religion.
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
I could call religion "our own perceptions of our own perceptions" I guess, though those aren't words I'd use for it, and I assume that's not what you meant, but really I have no I idea, because to me if we're talking about a goddess intentionally used as a namesake, then...it's reasonable to assume appeal, as I do.
You speak as if with authority, when you judge what cultural values and contexts are positive or negative
Not really. I speak for myself, but my view of myths isn't one-dimensional, and my view of the context isn't only based on myth. I am being lazy by lumping "Ancient Greeks" and stuff like that, sorry. I know for certain there were places and times in Greece that I wouldn't have wanted to live in, and I assume but don't know that a lot of modern people wouldn't either. I can also imagine circumstances in which I would have preferred living in Ancient Greece over how I live now. I do have a particular view of Hera's limits, but it's mostly based on my understanding that Hera is meant to be worshipped and implications that has for who she is. I didn't mean to seem reductive (or like I was casting blame on Greeks as a whole somehow by being judgmental of a myth from one angle - struggle/deceit/ambiguity/sex/creation/unity), but this is a complex subject, and I also didn't intend to overexplain.
and having to characterize myths as "religion" or "propaganda" (terms with meanings specific to our culture).
Honestly, I only have a vague idea what these things (or positive, negative, shame, goddess, power, sexist, humble, etc) mean to you, our understandings of propaganda at least do not exactly align, despite me not disagreeing with your very well-worded definition. I cannot be completely sure how they'd translate to Ancient Greeks either; I can only guess. Differences in word-concepts can be profound; I expect that...wouldn't have chosen the word "propaganda" to convey my thought, if I expected an ancient Greek audience. Understanding has limits, and so does speaking English in 2021, but I'm not placing a lot of importance on the word itself or thinking of it as intrinsically negative; it's an approximation of what I wanted to convey. I'm not seeing why that means, necessarily, we humans are utterly incapable of understanding each other across time gaps.
I don't know what concept you're referring to, when you cite power of marriage and imply it's something our culture might ever depict
I wasn't thinking of anything real specific (what makes marriage powerful in our culture and time? what would experience of that power be like? would it still mesh with Matriach? would it even be female? generally), more trying to reiterate that an American-power-of-marriage, if there was one, would not be Hera. Adding to Hera's stories at this point (as if she needs to be redeemed, which was mentioned at some point in the thread) would irk me. Plus, if American-power-of-marriage were conflated with Hera in a story, the story'd automatically be less culturally meaningful for American people...maybe I'm overreacting to the redemption idea because I'm sick of Hollywood movies about superheroes and nonreligious pop culture paganism. I think there was a tradition in which she (in one aspect) was divorced/separated/widowed, so it wouldn't be an entire fabrication in that way (but then I'd feel like framing getting rid of Zeus as *good* was annoying, too, ugh).
Pelops differentiated "holders of cultural shapes" from what they actually "represent" (because who can say what that is?), and I feel like I agree with that but wasn't really with your seeming agreement to it (because of the "no way" statement).
I was trying to say, Hera (that name) is a cultural shape...an understanding of a specific power in a specific network of powers.
Hera is an amalgam of experience; of course she is culturally distorted. She's relatable but can only be understood in an experiential (religious, ritualistic) way.
Once I start talking in abstract terms (like Goddess/Power of Marriage), and relate that to my own cultural context (like by suggesting her stories should change, because no one I know would complain), then that's not symbolic of Hera (the Greek goddess) even though marriage is her domain; that's a concept independent of her. But she is also a symbol in addition to an experience, just not one automatically identifiable using only the interpretation of relationships popular in my culture. I can intuit and make judgements without losing sight of that.
How is it positive for you, if you reject Hera's entire context as patriarchal and rapey. Isn't that reinventing it and claiming it's connected to Hera because you yourself make an analogy?
I never actually did that (reject)? Greek culture was patriarchal for a very long time, in a way that restricted both women and men in various ways that would discomfit me, and patriarchy is not something I desire to idealize, sure. I don't hate Zeus. I was indelicate about why I think a series of myths functioned (was responding to "Zeus was absolutely atrocious to her" - my comment was meant like: she had limited power, by design (as did the other gods/goddesses); her function/role only makes sense in context of her power, and the stories don't make sense without considering her function. Her being "raped" *however-Greeks-who-treat-that-myth-as-authoritative-would-interpret* by my best guess wouldn't negate why she is powerful even if she was depicted as humiliated/limited/ineffective/restrained/faithful/desirable/whatever: it reveals what her power is (perhaps not in obvious ways to modern people) somehow and same for Zeus, because that's how Greek religious stories work imv, no matter what judgments I make about Greek ideas of consent or rationality. I have a lot of respect for Hera's cultural shape; I don't see why I wouldn't if I lived in Ancient Greece either, even though perspectives on her myths weren't uniform even in Ancient Greece? I can have that respect, and I can understand the experience of Hera in a retrospective, limited human way, without desiring to recreate in my exterior world, on a grand-scale, what led to it.
None of that's relevant to people using the name Hera in a way that'd be incongruent with my understanding and speculation on ancient religion, of course.
I've been thinking, mainly, that people probably aren't thinking of Hera, if they're thinking of her outside the context of ancient religion.
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
I could call religion "our own perceptions of our own perceptions" I guess, though those aren't words I'd use for it, and I assume that's not what you meant, but really I have no I idea, because to me if we're talking about a goddess intentionally used as a namesake, then...it's reasonable to assume appeal, as I do.
You speak as if with authority, when you judge what cultural values and contexts are positive or negative
Not really. I speak for myself, but my view of myths isn't one-dimensional, and my view of the context isn't only based on myth. I am being lazy by lumping "Ancient Greeks" and stuff like that, sorry. I know for certain there were places and times in Greece that I wouldn't have wanted to live in, and I assume but don't know that a lot of modern people wouldn't either. I can also imagine circumstances in which I would have preferred living in Ancient Greece over how I live now. I do have a particular view of Hera's limits, but it's mostly based on my understanding that Hera is meant to be worshipped and implications that has for who she is. I didn't mean to seem reductive (or like I was casting blame on Greeks as a whole somehow by being judgmental of a myth from one angle - struggle/deceit/ambiguity/sex/creation/unity), but this is a complex subject, and I also didn't intend to overexplain.
and having to characterize myths as "religion" or "propaganda" (terms with meanings specific to our culture).
Honestly, I only have a vague idea what these things (or positive, negative, shame, goddess, power, sexist, humble, etc) mean to you, our understandings of propaganda at least do not exactly align, despite me not disagreeing with your very well-worded definition. I cannot be completely sure how they'd translate to Ancient Greeks either; I can only guess. Differences in word-concepts can be profound; I expect that...wouldn't have chosen the word "propaganda" to convey my thought, if I expected an ancient Greek audience. Understanding has limits, and so does speaking English in 2021, but I'm not placing a lot of importance on the word itself or thinking of it as intrinsically negative; it's an approximation of what I wanted to convey. I'm not seeing why that means, necessarily, we humans are utterly incapable of understanding each other across time gaps.
I don't know what concept you're referring to, when you cite power of marriage and imply it's something our culture might ever depict
I wasn't thinking of anything real specific (what makes marriage powerful in our culture and time? what would experience of that power be like? would it still mesh with Matriach? would it even be female? generally), more trying to reiterate that an American-power-of-marriage, if there was one, would not be Hera. Adding to Hera's stories at this point (as if she needs to be redeemed, which was mentioned at some point in the thread) would irk me. Plus, if American-power-of-marriage were conflated with Hera in a story, the story'd automatically be less culturally meaningful for American people...maybe I'm overreacting to the redemption idea because I'm sick of Hollywood movies about superheroes and nonreligious pop culture paganism. I think there was a tradition in which she (in one aspect) was divorced/separated/widowed, so it wouldn't be an entire fabrication in that way (but then I'd feel like framing getting rid of Zeus as *good* was annoying, too, ugh).
Pelops differentiated "holders of cultural shapes" from what they actually "represent" (because who can say what that is?), and I feel like I agree with that but wasn't really with your seeming agreement to it (because of the "no way" statement).
I was trying to say, Hera (that name) is a cultural shape...an understanding of a specific power in a specific network of powers.
Hera is an amalgam of experience; of course she is culturally distorted. She's relatable but can only be understood in an experiential (religious, ritualistic) way.
Once I start talking in abstract terms (like Goddess/Power of Marriage), and relate that to my own cultural context (like by suggesting her stories should change, because no one I know would complain), then that's not symbolic of Hera (the Greek goddess) even though marriage is her domain; that's a concept independent of her. But she is also a symbol in addition to an experience, just not one automatically identifiable using only the interpretation of relationships popular in my culture. I can intuit and make judgements without losing sight of that.
How is it positive for you, if you reject Hera's entire context as patriarchal and rapey. Isn't that reinventing it and claiming it's connected to Hera because you yourself make an analogy?
I never actually did that (reject)? Greek culture was patriarchal for a very long time, in a way that restricted both women and men in various ways that would discomfit me, and patriarchy is not something I desire to idealize, sure. I don't hate Zeus. I was indelicate about why I think a series of myths functioned (was responding to "Zeus was absolutely atrocious to her" - my comment was meant like: she had limited power, by design (as did the other gods/goddesses); her function/role only makes sense in context of her power, and the stories don't make sense without considering her function. Her being "raped" *however-Greeks-who-treat-that-myth-as-authoritative-would-interpret* by my best guess wouldn't negate why she is powerful even if she was depicted as humiliated/limited/ineffective/restrained/faithful/desirable/whatever: it reveals what her power is (perhaps not in obvious ways to modern people) somehow and same for Zeus, because that's how Greek religious stories work imv, no matter what judgments I make about Greek ideas of consent or rationality. I have a lot of respect for Hera's cultural shape; I don't see why I wouldn't if I lived in Ancient Greece either, even though perspectives on her myths weren't uniform even in Ancient Greece? I can have that respect, and I can understand the experience of Hera in a retrospective, limited human way, without desiring to recreate in my exterior world, on a grand-scale, what led to it.
None of that's relevant to people using the name Hera in a way that'd be incongruent with my understanding and speculation on ancient religion, of course.
This message was edited 4/29/2021, 12:50 PM
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