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Help[Facts] Re: Two Spanish Names
in reply to a message by lac
Greyssi and Greyci are (wrong) attemps to spell in Spanish the English Gracie (the Spanish form of Grace is Gracia and its nickname is Gracita and a possible petform would be Graci). They are wrong spellings in Spanish because in this language there are not double SS and the Y is only a consonant or a semiconsonant but only at the end of the word (rey), never in the middle of a word before a consonant (reina).
This kind of Spanization of English names is popular in some Latin American countries and basically among people of low class. If you are interested in the connotations and consequences of this phenomenon and you read Spanish, there are several very interesting Daniel Samper Pizano's articles and a recent study from the Universidad de los Andes.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This kind of Spanization of English names is popular in some Latin American countries and basically among people of low class. If you are interested in the connotations and consequences of this phenomenon and you read Spanish, there are several very interesting Daniel Samper Pizano's articles and a recent study from the Universidad de los Andes.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
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Replies
Can I challenge you a bit, Lumia, on the idea that the use of "y" as a vowel or double ss's are a "misspelling" in Latin America? Why do Spanish speakers in the Western hemisphere have to abide by the spelling conventions of Spain any more than English speakers have to abide by the spelling conventions of England? As an American, I would find it quite humorous to be told by someone from England that I was "misspelling" words like color, dialog, criticize, and center. It seems to me that England and Spain both gave up the right to control how the rest of the world uses their language when they became colonial powers. :)
I also don't think that the use of "y" as a vowel in names necessarily indicates working class origin in Latin America. Certainly the name Mayra seems to be found regularly among educated persons, as shown by the following examples:
http://www.bombsite.com/montero/montero.html
http://www.psr.edu/page.cfm?l=301
http://www.nyif.com/courses/instructors/100001441.html
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:20625607~pagePK:64257043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html
I also don't think that the use of "y" as a vowel in names necessarily indicates working class origin in Latin America. Certainly the name Mayra seems to be found regularly among educated persons, as shown by the following examples:
http://www.bombsite.com/montero/montero.html
http://www.psr.edu/page.cfm?l=301
http://www.nyif.com/courses/instructors/100001441.html
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:20625607~pagePK:64257043~piPK:437376~theSitePK:4607,00.html
This message was edited 8/22/2007, 1:12 PM
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"Can I challenge you a bit, Lumia, on the idea that the use of "y" as a vowel or double ss's are a "misspelling" in Latin America? Why do Spanish speakers in the Western hemisphere have to abide by the spelling conventions of Spain any more than English speakers have to abide by the spelling conventions of England? As an American, I would find it quite humorous to be told by someone from England that I was "misspelling" words like color, dialog, criticize, and center. It seems to me that England and Spain both gave up the right to control how the rest of the world uses their language when they became colonial powers. :)"
Because Spanish is regulated by RAE rules, accepted by the rest of Spanish Academies. You can agree with this system or not, but that is how it runs in Spanish (and in other languages as French, Catalan, Basque...). English is an exception because it has not a Language Academy as most of the languages have.
Thanks God, Spanish (and the rest of Romanic languages and Basque language) has an Academy (Association of Academies). This way, for example, it is very simple to know how to correctly pronounce/write a thing and to know when there is a mistake.
In Spanish, mostly, misspellings indicate parents' low class/illiteracy and, as you can see by Samper's articles or by Universidad de los Andes's study, are rejected by educated speakers and/or higher classes. There are exceptions (princess Letizia has her name misspelled in Spanish or mispronounced in Italian), but the general rule works.
And a lot of educated Spanish speakers, even writers, make grammatical mistakes (you can visit http://cvc.cervantes.es/alhabla/museo_horrores/, e.g.) or write with mispellings, but these still be mistakes.
Side note: Academies from the "Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española" and date:
Because Spanish is regulated by RAE rules, accepted by the rest of Spanish Academies. You can agree with this system or not, but that is how it runs in Spanish (and in other languages as French, Catalan, Basque...). English is an exception because it has not a Language Academy as most of the languages have.
Thanks God, Spanish (and the rest of Romanic languages and Basque language) has an Academy (Association of Academies). This way, for example, it is very simple to know how to correctly pronounce/write a thing and to know when there is a mistake.
In Spanish, mostly, misspellings indicate parents' low class/illiteracy and, as you can see by Samper's articles or by Universidad de los Andes's study, are rejected by educated speakers and/or higher classes. There are exceptions (princess Letizia has her name misspelled in Spanish or mispronounced in Italian), but the general rule works.
And a lot of educated Spanish speakers, even writers, make grammatical mistakes (you can visit http://cvc.cervantes.es/alhabla/museo_horrores/, e.g.) or write with mispellings, but these still be mistakes.
Side note: Academies from the "Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española" and date:
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Thanks...
for the information about the academies. Of course, there would be different opinions about such organizations. I personally thank God that there isn't one for English. :)
for the information about the academies. Of course, there would be different opinions about such organizations. I personally thank God that there isn't one for English. :)
1
The reaction of a large part of the educated world to prescriptive grammar and spelling is of bemusement ... Of course, various Indian languages have had their stint with such exercises in the past, but today we define the language by educated native usage, not by what the educated native usage should be.
As a subject of study, usage is far more interesting to many of us than prescriptions ever can be. As I once noted in a different context, to many people, Spanish is what Spanish people do and say, not what even the majority of Spanish think they ought to do and say.
But, this discussion was very informative for a different point of view: thanks.
As a subject of study, usage is far more interesting to many of us than prescriptions ever can be. As I once noted in a different context, to many people, Spanish is what Spanish people do and say, not what even the majority of Spanish think they ought to do and say.
But, this discussion was very informative for a different point of view: thanks.
1
Computers make life so much easier. The ongoing Collins dictionary project with Birmingham University, called Cobuild, has a massive database of current English - spoken, written, broadcast - which is being used for some truly excellent dictionaries for second-language users; they give words a star rating according to frequency of usage, so 'food' gets five stars (the maximum) and 'foodstuff' only one. So helpful!
To my sorrow, they don't do given names. Maybe some day?
Here in South Africa we have an academy for the Afrikaans language, but not for English or any of the other indigenous languages. It's loosening up considerably, becoming more usage-based, but in the past it was ludicrously prescriptive.
To my sorrow, they don't do given names. Maybe some day?
Here in South Africa we have an academy for the Afrikaans language, but not for English or any of the other indigenous languages. It's loosening up considerably, becoming more usage-based, but in the past it was ludicrously prescriptive.
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The spelling with -y is an English influence (and in Spanish, this use of the Y only makes misspellings), but nicknames with -i are usual in femenine names: Mari, Leti, Conchi, Pauli...
Usually, they are made removing the ending in names which have an -i- (María > Mari, Patricia > Patri, Leticia > Leti) or adding the diminutive suffix "-ita" (sometimes to a nickname Concepción > Concha > Conchita, Dolores > Lola > Lolita) and then removing the ending "ta" (Conchita > Conchi, Lolita > Loli).
Usually, they are made removing the ending in names which have an -i- (María > Mari, Patricia > Patri, Leticia > Leti) or adding the diminutive suffix "-ita" (sometimes to a nickname Concepción > Concha > Conchita, Dolores > Lola > Lolita) and then removing the ending "ta" (Conchita > Conchi, Lolita > Loli).
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Here you have his two first articles about the question: "¿Dónde se metió Erialeth?" and "Nombres de hombres y familias"
http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/los-nombres-extranjeros-otro-ejemplo-del-complejo-de-inferioridad-que-padecen-muchos-colombianos/
And here you have the link to the text of "Nombre raro gana menos" (the link original often doesn't work):
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com/viewtopic.php?t=157
He has some others, I think, but I don't have here the exact titles and the links.
http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/los-nombres-extranjeros-otro-ejemplo-del-complejo-de-inferioridad-que-padecen-muchos-colombianos/
And here you have the link to the text of "Nombre raro gana menos" (the link original often doesn't work):
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com/viewtopic.php?t=157
He has some others, I think, but I don't have here the exact titles and the links.
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