New Post
Search
Help
ArchivesRe: Accuracy
in reply to a message by Robert Hill
I have at least five onomastic dictionaries here that give the origin of Murgatroyd as 'Margaret's clearing'. The earliest recorded form is Mergretrode (1379) so the Moor Gate hypothesis is obviously wrong. Also, the earliest forms if Ingham are Ingeham (1086), Ingheham (1115) and Ingaham (1163) so it was either the homestead/village of somebody named Inga or, as suggested in Mills' Oxford Dictionary of Place Names (2003) "a word meaning 'the Inguione', a member of the ancient Germanic tribe called the Inguiones". No one has proposed that it has anything to do with the common -ing suffix in Birmingham, etc. which originally meant 'people of, dwellers at'.
1
Replies
Nay Lad, I'm sorry if you can't take the critisism. I didn't realise you are the last word when it come to etymology. I suggest you open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong on this one. I live local to the area where the first Murgatroyds were to be found, there is still a house named after it.It is a Yorkshire dialect word with no association with Margaret at all, if you had ever been to Yorkshire you would understand. It is the clearing(royd-rode-rid or to rid the land of trees and stones) with the gate on to the moors.Lots of moors around here you see, think Wuther-ing Heights, oops 'owt ta do wi Inga?'. This is to be found in every local history book pertaining to Calderdale, Yorkshire, England and you wouldn't know that by reading a onomastic dictionary matey, no, knowledge like that comes from digging a bit deeper into local archives, something you can't do sat behind a computer screen in the United State of Whatever. Which takes me back to my original point, there are lots of inaccuracies on this site, have you thought that each dictionary you copy, has copied from other copies, so mistakes get copied too and then you come along decide you will perpetuate the copied mistake that your onomastic dictionaries made. A bit lazy me thinks.
May I suggest you click on the link below and read all about the origins of the first Moorgate royd,it's very interesting and then perhaps you could update the site.
http://users.actrix.co.nz/murgatroyd/constable.htm
And why would Ingham on it's own be any different to the suffix in Birmingham, it doesn't make sense. Ingham means Inga's Homestead but Birmingham means the Birmeha people of a homestead. Trust me I live where there are Ings and ingham in lots of place names and road names. Remeber the more common the name or occupation the less the name is used and vice versa. If every 2nd women was called Inga, there would be a lot of confusion when asking for Ingahams,'which one is thi after lad?'yeh! Doesn't make sense one bit, more lateral thinking and less dependancy on other peoples work.
May I suggest you click on the link below and read all about the origins of the first Moorgate royd,it's very interesting and then perhaps you could update the site.
http://users.actrix.co.nz/murgatroyd/constable.htm
And why would Ingham on it's own be any different to the suffix in Birmingham, it doesn't make sense. Ingham means Inga's Homestead but Birmingham means the Birmeha people of a homestead. Trust me I live where there are Ings and ingham in lots of place names and road names. Remeber the more common the name or occupation the less the name is used and vice versa. If every 2nd women was called Inga, there would be a lot of confusion when asking for Ingahams,'which one is thi after lad?'yeh! Doesn't make sense one bit, more lateral thinking and less dependancy on other peoples work.
1
I have nothing to do with this site so you're wrong on that count too. This Johanus de Morgateroyde crapola is a real howler, a total fabrication that a five-year-old child would not fall for. When you google it, you get all of ten hits which lead back to a story made up by a total unknown named Gary Martin who wrote something called Heavens to Murgatroyd. Why don't you try looking stuff up in a real onomastic dictionary for a change?
1
Marc, people make mistakes, no one is perfect, the better man admits they could be wrong, instead of bleating on about onosoddingmastic dictionaries.
The article clearly states that Johanus De Murgatroyd is mentioned as the constable of warley in 1371 (before 1379), back then people used the latinised form of their names in official documents in England, this gives it credibility if anything, the original document is in the local archives in the Halifax Town hall, you can contact the archive department and ask them
http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/leisure/localhistory/index.html
,it is mentioned in many local history sources in addition this, so not crapola Mr Purile. And what has Gary Martin being a total unknown got to do with it? Does that discount him because 'MARC' hasn't heard of him. Local Historians know much more about their towns and villages than some Professor of History or Languages at Oxford, it's a case of 'Jack of all trades and master of non'.
I have personally been to the Murgatroyd house where the name started, it exists as a structure, I've seen it with my eyes and walked through it's doors.
Can you not understand that an academic in Oxford could sit mulling over the name Murgatroyd, never been anywhere near the source, never having read the documents and not understanding the regional dialect, suddenly comes to a plausible answer 'Margarets road or Margarets Royd'. He makes this mistake which is repeated by every other lazy sod thereafter. Meanwhile the real meaning is still known to the people who's dialect created the word.
Think of it this way: there are many margarets in the UK and have been throughout the last 800 years or so, why then is Murgatroyd so regionalised, why isn't there other place names throughout the UK, why isn't there more people called Murgatroyd evenly distributed throughout the land. I'll tell you why, it is because royd is a localised word pertaining to a few thousand acres of valleys in the Parish Of Halifax, set in the heart of the Pennines (Moors).
The article clearly states that Johanus De Murgatroyd is mentioned as the constable of warley in 1371 (before 1379), back then people used the latinised form of their names in official documents in England, this gives it credibility if anything, the original document is in the local archives in the Halifax Town hall, you can contact the archive department and ask them
http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/leisure/localhistory/index.html
,it is mentioned in many local history sources in addition this, so not crapola Mr Purile. And what has Gary Martin being a total unknown got to do with it? Does that discount him because 'MARC' hasn't heard of him. Local Historians know much more about their towns and villages than some Professor of History or Languages at Oxford, it's a case of 'Jack of all trades and master of non'.
I have personally been to the Murgatroyd house where the name started, it exists as a structure, I've seen it with my eyes and walked through it's doors.
Can you not understand that an academic in Oxford could sit mulling over the name Murgatroyd, never been anywhere near the source, never having read the documents and not understanding the regional dialect, suddenly comes to a plausible answer 'Margarets road or Margarets Royd'. He makes this mistake which is repeated by every other lazy sod thereafter. Meanwhile the real meaning is still known to the people who's dialect created the word.
Think of it this way: there are many margarets in the UK and have been throughout the last 800 years or so, why then is Murgatroyd so regionalised, why isn't there other place names throughout the UK, why isn't there more people called Murgatroyd evenly distributed throughout the land. I'll tell you why, it is because royd is a localised word pertaining to a few thousand acres of valleys in the Parish Of Halifax, set in the heart of the Pennines (Moors).
1
I think that both of these names have a first component whose meaning is not settled, and so is still open to interpretation.
One thing I'm sure of, the ing of Ingham has nothing to do with the -ing suffix of Anglo-Saxon clan names, as in Birmingham, Nottingham, etc.
On Murgatroyd, I don't accept the "Margaret's clearing" interpretation, because I don't believe that given name had any currency when Old English rod/royd place names came into being. However, I don't accept any other interpretation at present. But I don't intend to claim superiority of knowledge over Dr.Paul Reaney, a Yorkshireman (Sheffield) who made a lifetime study of English surnames. He explains Murgatroyd as "Margaret's clearing". I wonder if he was just being puerile.
One thing I'm sure of, the ing of Ingham has nothing to do with the -ing suffix of Anglo-Saxon clan names, as in Birmingham, Nottingham, etc.
On Murgatroyd, I don't accept the "Margaret's clearing" interpretation, because I don't believe that given name had any currency when Old English rod/royd place names came into being. However, I don't accept any other interpretation at present. But I don't intend to claim superiority of knowledge over Dr.Paul Reaney, a Yorkshireman (Sheffield) who made a lifetime study of English surnames. He explains Murgatroyd as "Margaret's clearing". I wonder if he was just being puerile.
1
Can you embelish on why you are so certain that the place name ingham has no connection with the suffix in Birmingham etc. You sound confident on this one and yet offer no explanation.
1
Jim,
South Yorkshire is still many miles from the West Yorkshire and has an all together different dialect to West Yorkshire, so why he would know anything of this particular region is boyond me, unless he had visited the area and if that was the case he would have uncovered the truth. The fact that this chap hails from Sheffield has no bearing, you say yourself you discount the Margaret theory so why mention him at all.
There are documents in the local library archives, documents in the Town Hall Archives, that clearly state it's meaning as Moor Gate Royd, fact. Just because someone is an expert in any field doesn't make them inpervious to inaccuracies. Perhaps he has read the same dictionary as you guys.
South Yorkshire is still many miles from the West Yorkshire and has an all together different dialect to West Yorkshire, so why he would know anything of this particular region is boyond me, unless he had visited the area and if that was the case he would have uncovered the truth. The fact that this chap hails from Sheffield has no bearing, you say yourself you discount the Margaret theory so why mention him at all.
There are documents in the local library archives, documents in the Town Hall Archives, that clearly state it's meaning as Moor Gate Royd, fact. Just because someone is an expert in any field doesn't make them inpervious to inaccuracies. Perhaps he has read the same dictionary as you guys.
1
The reason I mention Paul Reaney is that, even while disagreeing with his interpretiation of the name Murgatroyd, I have respect for the breadth of his knowledge of a subject of interest to me.
Your attitude is that you disagree with Marc on a couple of things so you can denigrate and dismiss his contribution completely. You find two or three errors on this website and it's rubbish. As we say in Hull (Yorkshire) "The man who never made a mistake is a lazy b******d". Your attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong, I'm from Yorkshire and you're not" does a great disservice to all Yorkies and, I should add, reinforces a certain stereotype.
As you don't think anyone from outside of Halifax and environs has a right to voice an opinion on surnames of that area, I expect you will have no contribution to make on names from outside of your circumscribed area.
As for the name Ingham, my opinion is that the -ing suffix has no existence as a word in it's own right, i.e., ing is not a German word for clan. It's a bit like saying that beacuse we refer to the Smith family as "the Smiths", that the final S means "family".
Your attitude is that you disagree with Marc on a couple of things so you can denigrate and dismiss his contribution completely. You find two or three errors on this website and it's rubbish. As we say in Hull (Yorkshire) "The man who never made a mistake is a lazy b******d". Your attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong, I'm from Yorkshire and you're not" does a great disservice to all Yorkies and, I should add, reinforces a certain stereotype.
As you don't think anyone from outside of Halifax and environs has a right to voice an opinion on surnames of that area, I expect you will have no contribution to make on names from outside of your circumscribed area.
As for the name Ingham, my opinion is that the -ing suffix has no existence as a word in it's own right, i.e., ing is not a German word for clan. It's a bit like saying that beacuse we refer to the Smith family as "the Smiths", that the final S means "family".
1
I know where Hull is thank you, the birth place and still one of several homes of the former Deputy Prime minister, John Prescott, a fine specimen of a man!
You're obviously mates with Marc and are blinded to his arrogance, after all Crapola is rather puErile, is it not? Oh, and thanks for using the opportunity to point out the spelling mistake, must make you feel very proud and smug, well done old boy!
The point I was making Jim is that because I am local to Calderdale I know the origins of the word Murgatroyd, we have the proof, the evidence, whatever you want to call it. I don't say that an outsider can't have an opinion, I meant if the research had been thorough then he would have found the facts out as well.But facts are facts and because of my location and my knowledge of local history and dialect, I happen to know that this is a fact. Nothing to do with I'm a Yorkshire man.
I don't see that I fit into a stereotype at all, I think that's your problem not mine, I'm no more proud of my Yorkshire roots as I am at been a Human being. I'm sorry if my comments made you blush with embarrashment at being a fellow 'Yorki'. You liberal elitists are so embarrassed of your own, ask yourself, would I still fit into this negative stereotype if my opinions were coming from the perspective of a gay man or a different ethnicity? Probably not! I didn't say 'your not from Yorkshire, what would you know' did I? If my stance against a know all with a upto 5 ono whatever dictionaries upsets you, well tough.
You have to accept that contempary wisdom on all things shifts with new research uncovering new facts and shedding new light on old subjects. And that Dictionaries and history books take time to change.Remember, despite appearances, Hull wasn't built in a day
Open your mind Jim and read once more Marc's comments and if you are going to respond,do so with a more balanced and objective approach.
By the way I bow down to your superior knowledge on the Ingy thingy and concede your opinion is probably correct, as you do seem to know what you are on about with regards to that. One all mi finkss
P.S I've not been circumsised in any area, cheeky!
You're obviously mates with Marc and are blinded to his arrogance, after all Crapola is rather puErile, is it not? Oh, and thanks for using the opportunity to point out the spelling mistake, must make you feel very proud and smug, well done old boy!
The point I was making Jim is that because I am local to Calderdale I know the origins of the word Murgatroyd, we have the proof, the evidence, whatever you want to call it. I don't say that an outsider can't have an opinion, I meant if the research had been thorough then he would have found the facts out as well.But facts are facts and because of my location and my knowledge of local history and dialect, I happen to know that this is a fact. Nothing to do with I'm a Yorkshire man.
I don't see that I fit into a stereotype at all, I think that's your problem not mine, I'm no more proud of my Yorkshire roots as I am at been a Human being. I'm sorry if my comments made you blush with embarrashment at being a fellow 'Yorki'. You liberal elitists are so embarrassed of your own, ask yourself, would I still fit into this negative stereotype if my opinions were coming from the perspective of a gay man or a different ethnicity? Probably not! I didn't say 'your not from Yorkshire, what would you know' did I? If my stance against a know all with a upto 5 ono whatever dictionaries upsets you, well tough.
You have to accept that contempary wisdom on all things shifts with new research uncovering new facts and shedding new light on old subjects. And that Dictionaries and history books take time to change.Remember, despite appearances, Hull wasn't built in a day
Open your mind Jim and read once more Marc's comments and if you are going to respond,do so with a more balanced and objective approach.
By the way I bow down to your superior knowledge on the Ingy thingy and concede your opinion is probably correct, as you do seem to know what you are on about with regards to that. One all mi finkss
P.S I've not been circumsised in any area, cheeky!
1
Just today I discovered a MURGATROYD ancestor, which got me to searching for the surname.
Thank you very much to that link. It's a long read, but well worth it.
Now to try to connect my Elizabeth Murgatroyd, born abt. 1762 most likely in Ontario, Canada, and married before 1796 in South Dumfries, Brant, Ontario, Canada to Edward WHITE, born abt. 1760 in South Dumfries.
I must say your sometimes heated arguments back an forth were quite entertaining.
Robert Peterson Sr.
Jenison, Michigan,
USA
Thank you very much to that link. It's a long read, but well worth it.
Now to try to connect my Elizabeth Murgatroyd, born abt. 1762 most likely in Ontario, Canada, and married before 1796 in South Dumfries, Brant, Ontario, Canada to Edward WHITE, born abt. 1760 in South Dumfries.
I must say your sometimes heated arguments back an forth were quite entertaining.
Robert Peterson Sr.
Jenison, Michigan,
USA
1
I quote - "You have to accept that contempary wisdom on all things shifts with new research uncovering new facts and shedding new light on old subjects. And that Dictionaries and history books take time to change."
I do accept that, what I don't accept is to dismiss earlier efforts and decry their proponents. I don't think Einstein ever said "That Isaac Newton, what a thicko!" As for the "liberal elitist" nonsense, that sounds like another way of saying middle class, which doesn't get a rise out of this old proletarian.
Prescott was born in North Wales, reared in Lancashire or Cheshire, and foisted on the tolerant folks of my fair city. We accept no responsibility for him.
I do accept that, what I don't accept is to dismiss earlier efforts and decry their proponents. I don't think Einstein ever said "That Isaac Newton, what a thicko!" As for the "liberal elitist" nonsense, that sounds like another way of saying middle class, which doesn't get a rise out of this old proletarian.
Prescott was born in North Wales, reared in Lancashire or Cheshire, and foisted on the tolerant folks of my fair city. We accept no responsibility for him.
1